Probiotic...do you know this one?

[tex]

First, I'd like to point out that the reason why quinoa does not generally appear on lists of histamine-containing foods, or lists of histamine-triggering foods, is probably because it is not exactly a mainstream product that everyone is familiar with. Besides it being an unfamiliar product, many people do not know how to properly classify it, (do they list it with grains, nuts, or what?), so they probably just say to heck with it, and don't bother to list it at all, rather than to suffer the embarrassment of improperly classifying it. I tried to find the histamine content of quinoa, but I didn't have any luck, so I don't know if it might be a problem, or not. I do, however, note that some people obviously have problems with it. For example, check the first post at this link:

http://forum.allergyuk.org/viewtopic.ph ... 0&start=20

Ok, here's something else that we should be considering, (IMO). You're probably going to think that I've gone off the deep end, when I suggest that the article at the following link might have something to do with human mast cell/histamine-based reaction problems, but I have a strong suspicion that this bacterium, Allisonella histaminiformans, (or a closely-related human version of it), might play a role in human digestive system problems that are related to histamine issues. Maybe this is the key that we're overlooking.

Despite the fact that the article at the following link describes research with cattle and horses, I'm hoping that you will find it informative. Note that even though the article describes checking histamine levels in the ruminal fluid of grain-fed cattle, and horses are not ruminants, (they're monogastric, like humans), but horses also apparently carry these histamine-producing bacteria. I can't help but wonder if humans also carry these bacteria - especially those of us who have a history of grain consumption, and histamine-based digestive issues.

When cattle and horses are fed large amounts of grain, histamine can accumulate in the gastrointestinal tract, and this accumulation can cause an acute inflammation of the hooves (laminitis).

Apparently, these bacteria are only present when grain is a regular part of the diet:

The histamine producing bacteria could not be isolated from the rumens of cattle fed hay; however, histamine producing bacteria could be isolated the feces of cattle fed grain and the cecum of a horse.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 2004701381

Note that this bacteria is also present in cattle fed silage, (silage contains chopped whole cereal grain plants, including the immature grain), and the presence of peptides is necessary for the successful completion of the process:

it appeared that A. histaminiformans requires peptides.

That's an interesting observation, in view of the fact that peptides are at the root of our leaky gut, and associated issues.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15386119

Or, I could be all wet.

Tex

[sarkin]

That's very interesting, Tex - and it is interesting that it comes up in this 'probiotics' thread.

I wonder whether those of us with mast cells are more likely to have an unexpected benefit in MC symptoms when an antibiotic is given for an unrelated issue? (In which case, maybe I should stop avoiding antibiotics like the plague.)

I wonder whether my recent trip contributed to a shift in the bacterial population? My eye stye-thing is almost gone, ear infection never got off the ground, scalp sore spot resolving...). And I wonder how hard it is to re-shift this population, once grain is eliminated from the diet. And I wonder whether there's a difference in those with mast-cell activation, as opposed to excess mast cells, in how to proceed in order to get the histamine genie back in the bottle.

Since so many of us had an intestinal bug as part of the package of kicking off MC, this could certainly be an important factor that's not been looked at in humans. If this is the case, the right probiotic might work - and it might not be the same for everyone; the right antibiotic might actually help instead of hurting (but that wouldn't be the same for everyone, either).

I'm curious but not sure where to go from here! I was heading for a pretty hard-core Paleo experiment, and this certainly doesn't discourage me from that. I wonder whether there's anything *already* findable in standard stool tests, that has a similar effect in humans that hasn't been described?

Pondering, pondering....

Sara

[tex]

If you are interested in all the gory details about that strain of bacterium, here's a reference. Also, note that intestinal pH may be a factor:

Cows fed dairy rations had relatively high concentrations of ruminal histamine without showing overt signs of laminitis, but this effect may be due to ruminal pH. Other researchers have demonstrated that rumen to blood histamine flux does not occur until ruminal pH becomes acidic.

Dairy cattle are fed high grain content rations, because grain boosts milk production. Note that in humans, digestive tract pH is most likely to be the most acidic at the point where the chyme is dumped from the stomach into the duodenum, before a buffering agent is added from the pancreas, by way of the common bile duct. Also, disbiosis, (bacterial imbalance), can cause pH excursions. All of this, of course, would point to a bacterial problem, as the qualifying event, for this situation to develop.

http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/bitstream/10113 ... 109956.pdf

Tex

[Sheila]

As to antibiotics, when I took antibiotics (Zpak) for brochitis in May, the D stopped. I was still taking immodium in fear of an accident because I was on vacation and not at home. I didn't realize it was the anti-biotic that probably stopped the D until Tex pointed that out. So, there are "good" antibiotics.

Did an experiment today with the quinoa tabbouleh. I finished the bowl but didn't top it off with a the SO mint chocolate chip ice cream I have eaten the previous 2 days. No gas today, no discomfort. (And my hooves look good, too) I remember having a reaction to the SO ice cream in the past but just attributed it to my reacting to almost everything at that time. I can eat Tofutti ice cream and not have any problems. I cannot imagine what it is in the SO that bothers me. I don't like coconut and usually avoid it. My mother always ate coconut maccarroons because she said they helped stop the D. For about 1 1/2 weeks I ate 2 home made coconut maccarrons a day It was same old, same old with the D and I gratefully stopped eating them. Is there an allergy to coconuts??? Wouldn't mind that except for not being able to have a pina colada ever again.

I love the thinking outside the box that you do, Tex. Someone, somewhere will discover what causes MC and hopefully will discover a "cure", if that is even possible. There just has to be something that triggers this disease, doesn't there? But then again, there is the hereditary factor.

Sheila

Sheila

[sarkin]

Good detective work there, Sheila! And happy news about the hooves, too

Gosh, I'm glad you're at least knocking a food off your list that you don't like! Especially since you have a workable alternative for frozen yummy goodness.

--Sara

[tex]

Is there an allergy to coconuts???

The problem could be the fiber or the oil. I don't know if that product is made from coconut, coconut milk, or coconut cream. Coconut is high in fiber and it has the highest saturated fat level of any common food item. Coconut milk is not as rich, but still richer than most milks. Coconut cream is even richer, of course.

I love the thinking outside the box that you do, Tex.

Apparently my problem is my inability to concentrate. I keep getting side-tracked.

Tex

[sarkin]

Side-tracked?

Did you say side-tracked?

I'm sorry, what were we talking about?

I swear, the better I feel the more I'm convinced I have adult ADD. Now that I have energy, my capacity for focus is all over the place. I really wonder whether it's not a symptom of gluten damage, I am feeling like I need a professional organizer to follow me around and crack the whip. Sheesh.

Good for thinking outside the box, though (Has anyone seen where I put that box?)

Love,
Sara

[sarkin]

Tex,

Could your article offer a possible explanation for why some GS individuals report they can tolerate grass-fed, but not grain-fed beef? It would make more sense that there would be increased histamine in the meat, as opposed to traces of gluten (or wouldn't it?).

I know this is speculation on top of guessing on my part, but it struck me that for individuals with mast-cell concerns, that might be worth a try - even if no obvious reaction to beef is taking place, maybe this would be a way to lower the overall histamine load.

Curious,

Sara

[tex]

Could your article offer a possible explanation for why some GS individuals report they can tolerate grass-fed, but not grain-fed beef? It would make more sense that there would be increased histamine in the meat, as opposed to traces of gluten (or wouldn't it?).

Hmmmmmm. That's an interesting observation. The article, of course, doesn't offer any insight into histamine levels in the carcass of the animal, since they were only studying the presence of the bacterium, and not the specifics of their effects, (except for hoof inflammation, of course). The fact that the bacteria were able to cause hoof inflammation proves that the histamines that they produce almost certainly must be distributed by the circulatory system, so they would have to be available systemically, (system-wide). According to their analysis, the histamine causes vasodilation of small capillaries in the laminar corium of the hoof, (above the hoof), and once the capillaries have been dilated, circulation tends to stagnate, which leads to a state of depleted oxygen, and epithelial cells which would have otherwise developed into hoof material, degenerate, instead. Note that corium is simply another word for dermis, (which is the true skin, under the epidermis).

Anyway, obviously, the histamine would have to be available all over the carcass, (wherever blood flows), so if it can end up in dermal tissue, I would assume that it could just as easily end up in muscle tissue, which implies that yes, IMO, the meat from grain-fed animals, (that host colonies of A. histaminiformans), might indeed have a significantly higher histamine level than the meat of grass-fed animals. I have no idea what percentage of grain-fed cattle are hosts to A. histaminiformans, but I would assume that the strain is pretty much ubiquitous, based on reports available in the literature.

Whenever histamine levels are determined for various foods, it's unlikely that anyone ever bothers to distinguish between such categories, when they are doing the testing. It would be interesting to see what a comparison of histamine levels for meat from the carcass of grain-fed beef, and meat from the carcass of grass-fed beef, might show. I suspect that it would prove your speculation to be right on target.

Note, though, that DogtorJ claims that gluten can be transmitted in the meat of animals that are fed rations that include gluten:

http://dogtorj.com/what-is-food-intoler ... enization/

Here's your gold star. Step to the head of the class.

Love,
Tex

[sarkin]

Thanks, Tex - you made me laugh AND I got a gold star!

Love,
Sara