The gut-bug connection

[tex]

the bottle says MOS (MannanOligoSaccharides) is an oligosaccharide from the cell walls of S. cerevisiae that can discourage bacteria from adhering to the epithelial cells and reduce their proliferation.)

FWIW, the problem with that feature is that if it actually works, it will prevent "good" bacteria from sticking, just as effectively as it will prevent "bad" bacteria from sticking. That's one of the reasons why most oligosaccharides usually don't prove to be as beneficial for us, as the ads suggest, (in fact, they have about a 50-50 chance of making things worse), and it's also the reason why all current probiotic products provide only temporary protection - as soon as they are discontinued, the probiotic strain fades away, due to natural attrition. IOW, since they don't become attached, they get washed downstream.

Tex

[sarkin]

Makes tons of sense. I was annoyed that this product has a second 'helpful' ingredient (which just gums up the works, as far as figuring out whether the first one is working goes).

I'm sure that 'failure to stick' would apply equally to yeasts as to bacteria. I'll read some labels on other products online - I had a heck of a time finding any brand at all this time, not sure why. (I wondered whether the evil hospital whether my mother acquired C. diff had successfully passed it to a bunch of new patients all at once.)

Thanks,
Sara

[Sheila]

Thank you Sara. After reading that Wiki piece, I will stick with Florastor, for sure. I will look for a bioidentical product if I can find one that is less expensive. It will be interesting to see if you feel better once back on S. boulardi. I was taking a few other probiotics until Tex set me straight about their efficacy in my situation.
Every day is different with this disease. I am feeling a little better each day, gaining weight unfortunately, but I also have a lot more energy. More days at the gym are in my future.
Sheila

[sarkin]

Sheila,

Glad you're feeling better, especially about the energy. I'll let you know how my S. boulardii experiment goes. I'll be researching further...

All my best,
Sara

[tex]

Sara,

In case you're not aware of this - no probiotic strains will stick, and establish permanent colonies in the gut. That's because bacteria have to be "trained" to attach and propagate in the intestines. Somewhere on this board, years ago, Polly posted the results of a study done in England that showed that only bacteria that have passed through the GI tract of another human, will stick, and establish a permanent colony in the gut of another person. I can't find the post, at the moment, because it's buried somewhere in someone else's thread.

Anyway, the point is, the probiotic bacteria have to be properly "trained", or "sensitized", before they will stick. So far, the only known way to do this is by transferring them from one gut, (in which they have a permanently established colony), to another. Because of that, no commercial probiotic products will establish permanent colonies. Obviously, we receive our initial "inoculation" with bacteria during the birth process, since the bacteria we receive from our mother are properly trained to "attach".

Speaking of gut bacteria, I'll bet you'll find the article at this link interesting:

This isn’t something a mother wants to hear: when you gave birth to your child, you laced it with millions of unseen forces that are shaping the way it thinks and behaves. Under their influence, your baby’s nerves will grow and connect in ways that will affect everything from how anxious to how coordinated it is. Thanks to your very first birthday present, your infant’s brain is being shaped by its gut. Or, more accurately, what’s inside its gut.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notro ... ung-brain/

Love,
Tex

[Polly]

Hi Buddies,

I haven't had much time to post, but I'm following this thread with great interest. Y'all already know that I believe a major factor in MC is pathogens, whether due to a disrupted/unbalanced gut flora or to a yet-unknown introduced bug, like mycobacterium paratuberculosis.

In the past I have tried a number of probiotics without success - at times my symptoms were even made worse. I have not tried S. boulardii but am intrigued by it. My brother's Whipple surgeon had him take Florastor for 7 days prior to surgery. However, I'm not sure I'd tolerate it. I was positive for S. cerevisiae (baker's yeast) with both Dr. Fine's tests and the MRT. I wonder how much crossover exists between the two yeast strains? Does anyone know? Also, I'm concerned about the 32 mg. of lactose in each capsule.

Anyway, I am following everyone's progress with S. boulardii. Keep those posts coming!

Hugs,

Polly

[tex]

I find some of the comments, in response to the blog I cited, very interesting, also. Such as this one, by a professional who works in pediatrics:

I work with kids in my pediatric nutrition practice who have problems like asthma, allergies, autism, adhd, growth failure, eosinophilic esophagitis, and so on. Their common denominator: Something disrupted their newborn microflora environments. It happens in many different ways. It can be C-section, premature birth plus NICU time where antibiotics were given, mom breastfeeding while needing antibiotics, mom being treated for Group B strep with antibiotics, and so on. Giving hepatitis B vaccines at birth, which contain yeast protein, add to the confusion for a newborn’s immune system. Some children in my practice disintegrate quickly when left off strong drugs like Flagyl or Diflucan, which keep yeast and other unwanted microbes in check. Their immune systems just don’t seem to have “learned” to do that. And yes – babies fed formula do develop different (less healthy) bowel microflora than babies on breast milk. And.. that mouthful of bacteria baby gets on its way out from the birth canal is the very first imprint the immune system gets. It matters – and I must wonder why our current practice so wantonly tampers with it by vaccinating immediately, using antibiotics without probiotics or antifungal measures, or offering C-sections too freely.

The red emphasis is mine, of course.

Also, response number 15, by Hilary Butler, is way beyond excellent - it's absolutely superb, and it's definitely worth reading. Here's her website, in case you like the way she thinks:

http://www.beyondconformity.org.nz/

Tex

[sarkin]

Tex,

Great links, thanks - and great point about the 'training' of the cultures. The kind fellow at So Delicious explained to me that they have done this with their cultures - you can't just take dairy yogurt with a live population and expect those bacteria to thrive on coconut milk.

Polly,

From everything I've read, those two yeast species are related, but distinct in genetics and 'behavior' - whether that difference is big enough for you is a question I don't know how to answer (other than our friend trial and error). You seem to tolerate at least some wine yeasts, though, so maybe that is reason for cautious optimism? Boulard found the yeast by observing people in southeast Asia chewing on the skins of lychee and mangosteen, to control cholera symptoms.

I wonder whether it's more worth it to figure out whether you can tolerate lychees or mangosteens, or the yeast itself...

Great set of topics we have going here - I wish I had time for more depth today!

Love,
Sara

[Zizzle]

The quote above from Tex and the article I posted a while back about the POTS diet points to gut colonization at birth and infancy as the cause of many growing childhood conditions, and I agree with this theory. Interestingly, my best friend has Crohn's and routinely tests positive for C.Diff. She has 4 kids. Her first was born by c-section before her Crohn's diagnosis and didn't breastfeed very long. She is healthy as an ox. No medical issues whetsoever. Her other 3 children were born vaginally and breastfed for at least a year. They each have medical issues as follows: 1 suspected of Crohn's, 1 with asthma and airborne allergies, 1 with constant ear infections and allergies. Could their trip through mom's altered gut flora be to blame for all this?

Which makes me wonder...Should people with IBDs have elective C-sections to avoid passing on their pathological mix of flora??

I had mastitis 4 times while trying to breastfeed my son. Would I have been better off pumping and dumping during those periods on antibiotics?

While I agree with all this, are Gen X perfectionist mothers going to go crazy blaming themselves and their bodies for their children's ADD/autism/allergies/IBDs, etc? When we can also agree that other environmental factors must also be at play (chemicals, pollutants, etc)?

[tex]

Zizzle,

Wow! You're chock full of downright profound questions, today. I wish I knew the answers, but the best I can do is offer a non-professional opinion.

Could their trip through mom's altered gut flora be to blame for all this?

Maybe. It would surely be very enlightening to see data that linked mothers with an IBD, with the the long-term status of their children's health, (i. e., whether or not they developed related GI issues, or other autoimmune issues, during their lifetimes.

Which makes me wonder...Should people with IBDs have elective C-sections to avoid passing on their pathological mix of flora??

This answer would have to depend on the answer to the first question, but the problem is, statistics show that babies delivered by C-sections are typically worse off than those born naturally, so someone needs to figure out the correct way to safely and properly jump-start the immune system on babies delivered by C-section.

I had mastitis 4 times while trying to breastfeed my son. Would I have been better off pumping and dumping during those periods on antibiotics?

Yes, IMO. Dairy farmers have always dumped milk from a cow being treated for mastitis. I'm not sure if that's a USDA requirement, or not, but I always assumed that it was. To be honest, I'm kind of surprised that it's not highly recommended for humans. The point is, if USDA feels that humans of any age should not be drinking milk from a cow being treated with antibiotics, why would the FDA feel that it's OK for babies to drink milk that contains antibiotic residues?

While I agree with all this, are Gen X perfectionist mothers going to go crazy blaming themselves and their bodies for their children's ADD/autism/allergies/IBDs, etc? When we can also agree that other environmental factors must also be at play (chemicals, pollutants, etc)?

I hope not, since they're paying for, and following the advice of medical professionals. IMO, that relieves them of any sense of responsibility. If they were acting on their own opinions, I can see how they might feel responsible, but that's not the case - they're relying on professional advice. That's why they work with an OB/GYN.

Tex