Getting enough protein

sarkin · Post by **sarkin** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:37 pm

Zizzle caught my attention on another thread, and I think her concern deserves a little air-time:

I believe the body needs extra protein and fat when dealing with inflammation

I believe that, too, and actually sat down and did some math for myself. Which was a frustrating exercise, as I didn't have very good inputs to work with. According to something I read recently, people recovering from severe injury or trauma may need more protein - much more protein (3 or even 4g per kg of body weight), and failure to supply this in the diet (or inability to consume it) significantly worsens outcomes - but first, the body utilizes its own stored muscle protein.

But, fortunately, I'm past the crisis point - and arguably, maybe even in Week One of a pretty awful MC crash (maybe a celiac crisis narrowly averted?), when I was losing muscle and fluids very quickly, I was not in need of the same level of dietary protein that a severe burn victim might be facing. (If I could have eaten and absorbed it, which is unlikely.)

So now... well post-crisis, but not all the way back to what I hope the "new normal" will be, I really wonder - if I sit down to ask myself, "am I getting enough protein?" - is 2g/kg enough? That's actually not terribly hard to do (for me), though it's a change in diet habits. What's a 'portion' of chicken, for me, now... and will that change as I heal further? I thought I might try a week of obsessive counting (in a program like fitday.com), and see what I actually eat.

I am curious, and interested to know whether others have pondered or researched along these lines,

Sara

Post by **tex** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:27 pm

Sara,

I've never pondered or researched that issue, because I've always been convinced that protein is essential to healing, so I've always emphasized it in my diet.

It will be interesting to see what sort of numbers you come up with.

Love,
Tex

sarkin · Post by **sarkin** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:03 pm

Thanks, Tex.

I have numbers in mind, and kind of wish I had had this thought when I was first stricken (at that point "thought" was definitely not my long suit). It is my suspicion that 2g/kg is low (and maybe in the range of what I'm eating?) - I think 3g/kg might not be too high, but am thinking to start at 2.5-ish.

I don't feel confident that the standard recommendations are OK for folks who aren't forging a recovery from inflammatory, autoimmune issues. And of course, whatever I learn will be contingent upon every possible thing, and hard to make generally useful. We have a cat recovering from a traumatic injury (he deserves a whole forum unto himself), and *years* later, he is still hungrier, and more of a food thief, than any of the others. I think that's reflective of a true, organic need. He's not especially crazy (any more than the rest of 'em).

I'll keep you posted.

Love,
Sara

mbeezie · Post by **mbeezie** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:25 am

Sara,

Interesting thread. I have on many occasions calculated my protein intake (fat, calorie and carbs too). It's a hazard of the profession.

Dr. Cordain recommends a little more than half of calories come from protein, but he's clear to say that the protein needs to be coupled with adequate fat or there are problems clearing the excess nitrogen. I'm quite certain our paleo ancestors weren't adding protein powder but rather eating meat and fish, therefore they got adequate fat. But that leaves precious few calories for carbs.

I sometimes find it hard to eat that much protein, and my wallet doesn't like it either (especially buying free range, grass fed etc). I can see your point though, that extra protien would be the way to go for healing.

Let's do some math. If the average woman (at least on this forum) is 50-60 kg (we'll split the difference and say 55) and they eat 2.5 grams protein per kg, that's 138 grams protein. Considering one egg has 7 grams of protein and a chicken breast around 28 grams, you can get an idea of how much protein that is (roughly the equivalent of 4 chicken breasts, 2 eggs, and some veggies - no dairy, no starches). That's certainly do-able. Right now I estimate am eating about 1.5 grams per kg on an average day, and that is way more than I used to eat, especially considering I was vegetarian. I also try to keep my carbs under 130 grams per day. I am eating virtually no grains (a little rice or corn on occasion).

One of the things I struggle with is environmental guilt. That's alot of protein for this tiny planet and all of its inhabitants. We don't live in paleo times where all parts of the animal are eaten and one can get large amounts of protein from fewer animals.

Sara, are you achieving 2.5 g/kg? Are you completely paleo at this point? Even the hardcore plaeo people talk about "cheat days" . . . it's hard to be paleo in a modern world.

Love,

Mary Beth

Post by **tex** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:35 am

Mary Beth,

You shouldn't feel guilty about eating "high off the hog", because the bulk of the population seems to be more than happy to eat all those other animal parts, (in processed meats), and they would be totally teed off, if they couldn't have their daily fix of carbs, from all the fast food joints. They wouldn't have it any other way. Despite the lofty goals that most consumers claim in food surveys, actions speak louder than words, and clearly, they like their carbs.

Tex

sarkin · Post by **sarkin** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:24 pm

Mary Beth,

I'm away with limited 'Net access - I'll promise a more detailed response, and just say for now that - I'm not hard-core Paleo (it's the potato chips), but I am pretty-gosh-darned-Paleo at the moment. I am not eating grains, or much of anything in the way of processed foods or additives (I could go further with this, and I am thinking I will do so at some point, as part of the MRT/LEAP process).

I have not done the math on my diet daily, but I agree that 2.5g/kg is not hard to achieve, and I know that I sometimes do eat that much protein. I am mindful of keeping up adequate fat, especially when eating exceptionally lean meats.

It's my guess that 2.5g/kg isn't enough for someone during or just after a true 'celiac crisis' - or your initial mast-cell experience, or the 'crash-like' illness so many of us experienced, whether it came on suddenly or sort of fell apart over time.

I am a former vegetarian, too. I heard a very articulate woman make a very interesting case that the planet-saving math was wrong, as part of the environmental case for not eating meat. I'll get that link for you (it was an interview that I saw online) when I'm home. She herself was a vegan for 20 years (and is strongly persuaded by her own experience and her research that that doesn't work).

It gave me some comfort. I do feel fortunate that I can afford to eat the way I do. More on this in a couple of days...

Tex, I agree - those carbs are addictive! My dear friend, where I'm visiting now, said to me that I'm now "across the divide" about this. It's really true - hard to imagine getting here, from the shore where the fast food is flowing...

Love,
Sara

Zizzle · Post by **Zizzle** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:10 pm

roughly the equivalent of 4 chicken breasts, 2 eggs, and some veggies - no dairy, no starches

Wow, 2.5g/kg is more than I imagined!! I have a meat/chicken/seafood serving at every dinner and most lunches. Breakfast includes eggs several times a week, sometimes with bacon. I suppose all my nut eating adds protein too, but I guess I'm surprised I thought I was eating much more protein than the recommended amount. When I do eat meat, I can't stomach huge amounts, certainly not more than one chicken breast in a sitting. But meat is the only food that offers me any level of satiaty. And it's been a re-learning process to eat the fat on steaks, lamb, etc. But I love it!

Sharaine · Post by **Sharaine** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:57 pm

I can't imagine eating all of that protein. I could never eat more than 1 chicken breast in a sitting. I do take in brown rice, peanut butter, and sometimes three thin slices of ham (sliced paper thin for sandwiches). I'd be terrified of becoming obese if I took in the amount of protein that you two are discussing.

Sharaine

Zizzle · Post by **Zizzle** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:11 pm

Sharaine,
You may recall all the people who lost lots of weight when the Atkin's Diet was popular. They ate seemingly unlimited amounts of meat, eggs, even cheese. Not only did they lose weight, their cholesterol levels also went down. Contrary to what our government will tell you, animal protein and fat are not what are making our nation fat, refined carbohydrates are (HF corn syrup, cookies, cakes, bread, candy, chips, soda, beer, etc). I eat way more animal fat than I used to but am yet to gain a pound. It's all about calories in versus calories out and maintaining even levels of insulin. Eating protein keeps the carb cravings at bay too.

Post by **tex** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:32 pm

Tex

mbeezie · Post by **mbeezie** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:46 pm

I would just like to add that nuts do not offer alot of protein, but they do provide fat and calories. Starches also offer very small amounts of protein.

I think you can get the protein in in snacks as well. Snacking on a hard boiled egg, prosciutto and melon, jerky (albeit a bit salty but my husband likes TomToms Turkey jerky from Whole Foods) etc can raise protein levels so you don't have to eat so much at one sitting.

Mary Beth

Zizzle · Post by **Zizzle** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:48 pm

What about beans, or beans combined with corn and/or rice? As a Latina, we were always led to believe that beans and corn combined to create a perfect protein (like they each contributed each other's missing amino acids). We also believe that adding lime to corn makes it more degistible/absorbable. Certainly many poor latin americans survive on these foods with minimal meat, so they must have protein, no? Wivestales?

And all this talk of rice protein powder. It never occured to me that rice had ANY protein. How much rice is needed to produce a few grams of rice protein??

mbeezie · Post by **mbeezie** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:58 pm

Z,

Of course rice and legumes have protein, just not like meat/fish. If you want a protein rich diet the only way to achieve it is with meat, otherwise you get too many carbs. Of course people survive on these diets, but the question remains, is it really what is best? We have also eaten wheat for the last 10,000 years and I don't think we can use the argument that it is healthy because people have eaten it for that long. Have you read Dr. Cordain's book? He covers all of this in there.

Mary Beth

Post by **tex** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:56 pm

Zizzle,

By percentage of total weight, here are some examples of the approximate protein content of various foods:

Corn--------------------------7%
Rice---------------------------7%
Navy beans-----------------8%
Pinto beans-----------------9%
Wheat----------------------13%
Soybeans------------------40%
Whole wheat bread-----10%
Chicken breast-----------23%
Bacon----------------------37%
Pork chops----------------30%
Ground beef--------------26%
Eggs-----------------------12%
Milk--------------------------3%
Butter----------------------0.8%
Low fat yogurt------------5%
Peanuts------------------24%
Almonds------------------21%
Pecans---------------------9%
Walnuts------------------15%

Tex

Zizzle · Post by **Zizzle** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:31 pm

Wow, that list is surprising to me in so many ways! Soy has more protein than meat? No wonder it's a filler in many foods. Bacon ranks highest among meats! I knew there was a reason I couldn't give it up

Protein content varies widely among nuts? Eggs have relatively little protein, and corn and rice have more protein than dairy products? Very interesting. Thanks for posting.