Visit the Microscopic Colitis Foundation Website
Let me start by saying I firmly believe I need a probiotic in my life to help me battle MC. Call me brainwashed, but I think my MC is at least partly the result of a pathogenic mix of gut flora, and I am determined to alter that mix somehow. So if I'm not going to blast them with an antibiotic, a probiotic is the only other option.
I respect Dr. Mercola and finally decided to give some of his products a try. I bought a 30-day supply of his multi-strain, GF/DF/SF "Complete Probiotics" and started 3 days ago. I take it first thing in the morning as he recommends. And my D is getting worse. I did have a mini-flare last week leading up to the probiotic (probably gluten cross-contamination), but I did have an almost Norman the morning I started the probiotic. By afternoon it was watery, almost slimy-looking D, multiple times. The D has continued all weekend, but very different looking than my usual - more green and slimey-looking. I feel totally wiped out too - needing lots more sleep than usual.
So, could this be a sign that the probiotic is very active and my gut flora are pissed off to have new visitors? Can probiotics actually kill other bacteria? Could any of this be viewed as a Herxeimer/die-off reaction? Should I continue to endure these symptoms (I can handle it) while my body acclamates to a new mix of flora (albeit visitors)? Or is this a sign that I'm simply intolerant to something in the probiotic and continuing to take it will simply make my MC worse??? [I'm willing to be a human suffering guinea pig for this experiment, if there is some hope of a payoff down the road].
These are the multiple strains included in this formulation:
Lactobacillus acidophilus DDS-1 - [exclusive "superstrain"] Because it is of human origin, it works exceptionally well in your GI tract.*
Lactobacillus casei - Works with other helpful organisms, and helps to encourage the growth of other beneficial bacteria.*
Lactobacillus plantarum - Has been shown to be resistant to low pH conditions and able to survive bile concentrations in your intestine.*
Lactobacillus salivarius - Promotes intestinal health and helps support your oral health as well.*
Lactobacillus rhamnosus - Assists your elimination and occasional intestinal discomfort by working to promote healthy intestinal microflora.*
Lactobacillus brevis- Beneficial lactic acid bacteria that helps support your GI tract.*
Bifidobacterium lactis- A friendly bacteria often found in raw yogurt known to help support healthy immune responses.*
Bifidobacterium longum- Helps keep your digestive system running smoothly, and helps support your immune system.*
Bifidobacterium bifidum- Helps promote a healthy balance of flora in your intestine.* This organism provides excellent support for a healthy balance of microflora.*
Streptococcus thermophilus- High potency culture that helps maintain normal intestinal flora in your gut.*
Here's a link to the probiotic I am taking:
http://probiotics.mercola.com/probiotics.html
Dr. Mercola's must-have list for probiotics:
Contains specific super-strain Lactobacillus acidophilus DDS-1
Shows high potency through independent lab test
Works together with prebiotics for improved probiotic performance*
Is stable at room temperature for at least 2 years
Is non-dairy, free from soy, corn, wheat, and gluten, and is non-GMO
Helps maintain a healthy flora, promotes digestion, and supports immune function*
Adapts naturally to the human body due to its human origins
Is acid and bile resistant to naturally survive the stomach and intestinal transit
Produces natural enzymes, vitamins, lactic acid, and hydrogen peroxide
Utilizes nitrogen packaging and is freeze-dried
Comes available in vegetable-based capsules
Is backed by academic and scientific research with patents and trademarks, and awards
Probiotic - no pain no gain??
Moderators: Rosie, Stanz, Jean, CAMary, moremuscle, JFR, Dee, xet, Peggy, Matthew, Gabes-Apg, grannyh, Gloria, Mars, starfire, Polly, Joefnh
Zizzle,
I certainly don't claim to be an authority on probiotics, but I do have some experience with D.
What you are describing is very rapid-transit D. Green means that the bile doesn't have any time to even begin the chemical transformation that should take it to the normal brown color. "Slimy-looking" suggests that your intestines are producing increased amounts of mucus, to protect the mucosa from whatever agent is irritating it. The rapid transition to watery D suggests that you are highly sensitive to something in the probiotic mix. I have a hunch that probiotics are a lot like processed foods, in that the more "ingredients" they contain, the more likely we are to be sensitive to one or more of them.
I'm not aware of any probiotics that have the ability to actually kill other bacteria, except by out-competing them. If they could actually kill other bacteria outright, they would have antibiotic properties, by definition, and would have to be regulated as antibiotics. As far as I'm aware, a Herxheimer reaction occurs when large quantities of toxins are released into the body as a result of an antibiotic treatment, and it typically involves fever, chills, headache, muscle pain, etc., and sometimes even skin lesions. While it might be theoretically possible, I doubt that what is happening to you is the result of a Herxheimer reaction, because gut population changes due to the use of a probiotic, wouldn't be likely to change that rapidly. The existing populations of gut bacteria are not going to roll over and die, simply because they are faced with a bunch of stiff, new competition for their parking spaces. They won't give up those parking spaces, unless they have a very good reason, such as an antibiotic treatment, or starvation for nutrients, and obviously, starvation for nutrients would take a whole.
IMO, you're simply very sensitive to some component of that probiotic "cocktail". If I were in your shoes, I would try less "ambitions" combinations of probiotics, to see if I could find a combination that I could tolerate. IMO, one-size-fits-all probiotic treatments are doomed from the get-go, because the odds of us reacting to an individual element in them, increases exponentially, as the number of different species in the mix is increased.
Looking at it another way - remember that in general, one-size-fits-all treatments never work for MC. We're all different.
I agree with you, though, that the right probiotic should definitely help. The trick is in finding the right one out of all the possible combinations, plus the fact that the right one for our particular needs, might not even be available commercially, for all we know.
Tex
I certainly don't claim to be an authority on probiotics, but I do have some experience with D.
What you are describing is very rapid-transit D. Green means that the bile doesn't have any time to even begin the chemical transformation that should take it to the normal brown color. "Slimy-looking" suggests that your intestines are producing increased amounts of mucus, to protect the mucosa from whatever agent is irritating it. The rapid transition to watery D suggests that you are highly sensitive to something in the probiotic mix. I have a hunch that probiotics are a lot like processed foods, in that the more "ingredients" they contain, the more likely we are to be sensitive to one or more of them.
I'm not aware of any probiotics that have the ability to actually kill other bacteria, except by out-competing them. If they could actually kill other bacteria outright, they would have antibiotic properties, by definition, and would have to be regulated as antibiotics. As far as I'm aware, a Herxheimer reaction occurs when large quantities of toxins are released into the body as a result of an antibiotic treatment, and it typically involves fever, chills, headache, muscle pain, etc., and sometimes even skin lesions. While it might be theoretically possible, I doubt that what is happening to you is the result of a Herxheimer reaction, because gut population changes due to the use of a probiotic, wouldn't be likely to change that rapidly. The existing populations of gut bacteria are not going to roll over and die, simply because they are faced with a bunch of stiff, new competition for their parking spaces. They won't give up those parking spaces, unless they have a very good reason, such as an antibiotic treatment, or starvation for nutrients, and obviously, starvation for nutrients would take a whole.
IMO, you're simply very sensitive to some component of that probiotic "cocktail". If I were in your shoes, I would try less "ambitions" combinations of probiotics, to see if I could find a combination that I could tolerate. IMO, one-size-fits-all probiotic treatments are doomed from the get-go, because the odds of us reacting to an individual element in them, increases exponentially, as the number of different species in the mix is increased.
Looking at it another way - remember that in general, one-size-fits-all treatments never work for MC. We're all different.
I agree with you, though, that the right probiotic should definitely help. The trick is in finding the right one out of all the possible combinations, plus the fact that the right one for our particular needs, might not even be available commercially, for all we know.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Sigh. I know you're right, even though I don't want you to be!! I think I'll give it a full week to see if things calm down. If this is true, would I be better off taking an antibiotic first, then starting a probiotic in earnest?The existing populations of gut bacteria are not going to roll over and die, simply because they are faced with a bunch of stiff, new competition for their parking spaces. They won't give up those parking spaces, unless they have a very good reason, such as an antibiotic treatment, or starvation for nutrients, and obviously, starvation for nutrients would take a whole.
Zizzle,
Have you ever tried any meds for you MC? I am pretty sure you are just working on diet alone but, I was too for a while and still struggling with D. Even after eliminating all of my sensitivties I learned I had from my Elisa test. I have been on the lialda for a little over a week now and I have 1 norman every morning. It's a complete difference from the 4-5 D's I was having days prior to taking it. It feels good to know that my insides aren't as inflamed and irritated and that I can have a norman, it's seriously the best feeling in the world. HA that sounds so stupid but it really is!
Have you ever tried any meds for you MC? I am pretty sure you are just working on diet alone but, I was too for a while and still struggling with D. Even after eliminating all of my sensitivties I learned I had from my Elisa test. I have been on the lialda for a little over a week now and I have 1 norman every morning. It's a complete difference from the 4-5 D's I was having days prior to taking it. It feels good to know that my insides aren't as inflamed and irritated and that I can have a norman, it's seriously the best feeling in the world. HA that sounds so stupid but it really is!
I have contemplated Lialda a number of times, but the side effects scare me. Are you having none?? That would be encouraging. I'm also not a pill-taker in general, and I want my solution to be something I can sustain long-term without risks. My D is totally manageable most of the time. When it starts interfering with life again, I probably will ask for a script. Now that I fired my GI though, I wonder if my internist will even prescribe it? Hmmm. One of her orders was to follow up with a new GI, but the search continues...
My next step is MRT testing in September. Hopefully I'll learn that something I eat regularly is the culprit in my continued D. Here's to hoping!
My next step is MRT testing in September. Hopefully I'll learn that something I eat regularly is the culprit in my continued D. Here's to hoping!
The problem with using an antibiotic is that it would kill all the beneficial bacteria, also, so you would have to start over, and since only bacteria with prior human gut experience are capable of "attaching" and establishing permanent colonies, that's not possible with probiotics alone. Short of a transplant of bacteria from a close relative, the only way that your gut can be recolonized, is by accidental contamination with bacteria from another human.Zizzle wrote:If this is true, would I be better off taking an antibiotic first, then starting a probiotic in earnest?
In the real world, that probably happens with much more regularity than we realize, because that's how we become infected with C. diff, E. coli, or any of the other pathogenic bacteria strains. We simply never notice when we are "contaminated", (or inoculated), by good bacteria, because we don't experience any adverse symptoms from the event. Presumably, we're probably "inoculated" by good bacteria from family members on a fairly regular basis. But who knows?
If that's true, then starting over with a clean gut should be a practical way to reestablish a more favorable gut bacteria profile, provided that we can keep out the bad strains, until the good strains become well established. That's one of the things that probiotics should help with, of course - IOW, they should help to fill in the spaces to prevent undesirable strains from becoming established before desirable species can establish dominant colonies.
Of course, that's just my opinion, and I'm no expert on probiotics.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
-
Gabes-Apg
- Emperor Penguin
- Posts: 8367
- Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:12 pm
- Location: Hunter Valley NSW Australia
Zizzle
my naturopath and acupuncturist both are keen for me to have pro-biotics, one hinderance is that most of the good ones are in gel cap or vege cap is an issue for me given they have soy in them
but even taken as powder some of it will make it to the right place of the gut.
we have been researching and discussing gut flora and pro-biotics for over 12 months
one thing we are pretty sure of is that the if the villi are damaged then the gut flora can not grow and flourish.
(an article discussing this http://www.carlazeiteraba.com/explainingthegaps.html and there are quite a few more out there)
my 12 month plan for his process was/is to
a) help the gut repair from leaky gut issues
b) help the villi recover and regrow
c) then do pro-biotic
given my resent bread and icecream test, i am very happy with the outcome of a)
the collostrum powder i am taking is helping with stage b) (and helping my immune system)
the original plan was 6 months of the collostrum powder and then we would start probiotic powder
the recent scopes have caused a bit of a delay re stage c) but i should be able to start this in about 2 - 3 months.
it is this plan that has stopped me from trying new ingredients, sticking to eating plan that works, and letting the villi recover and regenerate is essential to long term wellness.
my naturopath and acupuncturist both are keen for me to have pro-biotics, one hinderance is that most of the good ones are in gel cap or vege cap is an issue for me given they have soy in them
but even taken as powder some of it will make it to the right place of the gut.
we have been researching and discussing gut flora and pro-biotics for over 12 months
one thing we are pretty sure of is that the if the villi are damaged then the gut flora can not grow and flourish.
(an article discussing this http://www.carlazeiteraba.com/explainingthegaps.html and there are quite a few more out there)
my 12 month plan for his process was/is to
a) help the gut repair from leaky gut issues
b) help the villi recover and regrow
c) then do pro-biotic
given my resent bread and icecream test, i am very happy with the outcome of a)
the collostrum powder i am taking is helping with stage b) (and helping my immune system)
the original plan was 6 months of the collostrum powder and then we would start probiotic powder
the recent scopes have caused a bit of a delay re stage c) but i should be able to start this in about 2 - 3 months.
it is this plan that has stopped me from trying new ingredients, sticking to eating plan that works, and letting the villi recover and regenerate is essential to long term wellness.
Gabes Ryan
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
Gabes,
Thank you for that article. I stopped talking the probiotic today after a horrible day yesterday. I was in the bathroom at least 8 times, almost had 2 accidents while shopping at Whole Foods, I am totally dehydrated, and I've been sleeping 10 hours a night for 3 days straight - usually with lights on and clothes on! I feel as sick as I felt right before I started the GF/DF/SF diet, wondering if a trip to the hopital was next. This is not good. I plan to write to Dr. Mercola and ask for an explanation - hopefully he'll change his marketing to explain this is not a one-size-fits-all supplement. I'm back on Pepto 3x day hoping to calm this flare and get my energy back. I'd forgotten what it feels like to be this wiped out. Big hugs to all the MCers out there still in the early stages of treatment. This disease sucks. I just want to get back to my 1-2 mushy Ds per day. That would make me happy for now.
Thank you for that article. I stopped talking the probiotic today after a horrible day yesterday. I was in the bathroom at least 8 times, almost had 2 accidents while shopping at Whole Foods, I am totally dehydrated, and I've been sleeping 10 hours a night for 3 days straight - usually with lights on and clothes on! I feel as sick as I felt right before I started the GF/DF/SF diet, wondering if a trip to the hopital was next. This is not good. I plan to write to Dr. Mercola and ask for an explanation - hopefully he'll change his marketing to explain this is not a one-size-fits-all supplement. I'm back on Pepto 3x day hoping to calm this flare and get my energy back. I'd forgotten what it feels like to be this wiped out. Big hugs to all the MCers out there still in the early stages of treatment. This disease sucks. I just want to get back to my 1-2 mushy Ds per day. That would make me happy for now.
Gabes,
Regarding the article - that's a very good explanation of what happens with the production of enzymes used for splitting sugars, when the intestines are enveloped in enteritis, (except that it didn't go into detail about the individual enzymes connected with specific sugars, and how they are sequentially lost). That's also basically the treatment plan that I followed, during recovery, (except that I didn't buy any special "treatment program" foods or supplements - I just cut out everything that wasn't known to be safe).
Tex
Regarding the article - that's a very good explanation of what happens with the production of enzymes used for splitting sugars, when the intestines are enveloped in enteritis, (except that it didn't go into detail about the individual enzymes connected with specific sugars, and how they are sequentially lost). That's also basically the treatment plan that I followed, during recovery, (except that I didn't buy any special "treatment program" foods or supplements - I just cut out everything that wasn't known to be safe).
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Zizzle,
I hope you're back to normal in a day or so. It was a good experiment, though, and we all learned something from it. You certainly gave it a fair trial, (and then some). You were a lot more dedicated than I would have been - my enzyme trial only lasted for a single pill. When the nausea and vomiting started, I was outta there.
Tex
I hope you're back to normal in a day or so. It was a good experiment, though, and we all learned something from it. You certainly gave it a fair trial, (and then some). You were a lot more dedicated than I would have been - my enzyme trial only lasted for a single pill. When the nausea and vomiting started, I was outta there.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
-
Gabes-Apg
- Emperor Penguin
- Posts: 8367
- Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:12 pm
- Location: Hunter Valley NSW Australia
Tex
there is always a sales pictch (meds or supplements...)
I agree with you, good diet that nurtures and allows the gut to heal, and time 'softly softly catchee monkey' is very important to wellness.
With a combo of a conservative eating plan and lots of time the gut flora will also improve on its own
Zizzle - sorry to hear that you are poorly, and your body reacted so quickly and aggressively.
hope you rehydrate and feel better soon.
take care
there is always a sales pictch (meds or supplements...)
I agree with you, good diet that nurtures and allows the gut to heal, and time 'softly softly catchee monkey' is very important to wellness.
With a combo of a conservative eating plan and lots of time the gut flora will also improve on its own
Zizzle - sorry to hear that you are poorly, and your body reacted so quickly and aggressively.
hope you rehydrate and feel better soon.
take care
Gabes Ryan
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned"
Dalai Lama
Z,
I'm sorry this experiment wasn't successful (well, it succeeded in letting you know that that product isn't the answer). What a bummer to have even a temporary setback to that level of exhaustion & dehydration - yikes.
Wishing you a speedy return to 'normal' - maybe better than 'normal' this time.
S
I'm sorry this experiment wasn't successful (well, it succeeded in letting you know that that product isn't the answer). What a bummer to have even a temporary setback to that level of exhaustion & dehydration - yikes.
Wishing you a speedy return to 'normal' - maybe better than 'normal' this time.
S