Can Kidney Stones Trigger an MC Reaction?

[tex]

Hi All,

I'm having an interesting reaction. It's so unusual that if I weren't here to witness it myself, I might not believe it.

As most of you know, I have an ilestomy, and only a stub of my distal colon remains. It was resected (actually, totally disconnected) about 9 years ago (in fact, it will be 9 years in less than a week from today), when a section of my sigmoid colon was removed due to a stenosis/blockage. The rest of my colon, and part of my terminal ileum were removed about 4 years and 9 months ago. Neither procedure had anything to do with MC, so don't worry, it's not likely to happen to you.

Here's the reason why that background information is important:

2 days ago, I woke up feeling the same urgency that we're all familiar with during an MC reaction. I haven't felt that urgency in many years, but one never forgets that feeling. Naturally that struck me as rather odd, because with an ileostomy, there's almost no sensation prior to or during a BM (unless you have a blockage or something else to interfere with its operation). IOW, an ileostomy pretty much takes care of itself — it does it's business whenever what's left of a meal arrives at the end of the line, at the stoma.

So even though it was an impossible situation, I wasn't dumb enough to ignore those extremely urgent sensations, and sure enough, I had an impressive BM (impressive because that stub has been disconnected for so many years), from what I had assumed for years to be an out-of-service anus. But while the urgency puzzled me, I wasn't particularly surprised that something came out, because early on (after the procedure), every few months or so for maybe a year, I would have very small BMs, as residue that was left in there during the procedure, and dehydrated mucus, were purged. But finally that stopped, and I assumed that the stub just sort of shifted into neutral, out of boredom. So after 7 or 8 years of nothing, this was quite a surprise, especially the urgency.

But about 12 hours later, the same thing happened — extremely urgent sensations, followed this time by a surprising amount of liquid. The first time, there was a substantial amount of what I took to be old, dehydrated mucus, with very little liquid. The second time, there was much less formed material, and mostly liquid.

Yesterday morning, I again woke up with urgent D, and a surprising amount of liquid. Last night was OK, and this morning was OK, so I thought I had it made. But nope, late this afternoon the urgency began to build, and once again, there was a surprising amount of liquid.

There's no question that the volume of liquid involved each time has to be due to secretory D, the same form of diarrhea that marks MC. Water has no way of entering that stub unless it is infused (in the same way that water is infused during an MC reaction marked by secretory D.

It seems to be kind of a minimal MC reaction, because so far at least, I don't have any significant aches or pains. But the type of D is definitely the same type associated with an MC flare — relatively high volume, for such a short stub. And interestingly, my ostomy output (straight from what's left of my small intestine) doesn't appear to be significantly affected. The volume seems to be slightly increased, but nothing comparable to a typical MC reaction.

I'm pretty sure that this weird turn of events is associated with another kidney stone, because yesterday afternoon, I started feeling a bit cruddy, and as it slowly became worse, after a few hours or so it dawned on me that I was feeling almost exactly the way I felt when I went to the ER (exactly 3 weeks ago) and they found a kidney stone stuck in the right ureter, just above the bladder. This time the pain was on the same side again. I didn't go to the ER though, since I recognized the symptoms and the pain pattern, and after a couple more hours, I had a little round of chills, and then felt much better. Apparently it passed into my bladder.

So that's why I'm guessing that this odd experience is due to the passage of a kidney stone, rather than an actual MC event. Possible symptoms listed for a kidney stone event include nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. But why would a kidney stone cause secretory diarrhea? I thought that was reserved for MC. Even the other IBDs are not marked by secretory D — it's exclusive to MC. So could a kidney stone be an exception, or am I having an MC reaction?

Does anyone have any insight on this?

Tex

[Lilja]

Hi Tex,

I wouldn’t dare to suggest any probable answers.

However, it struck me that if the kidney stone had made some sort of an infection in the ureter before getting out, this might have triggered a reaction.

I don’t know, but I think there is a connection between the stuck kidney stone and your secretory D.

I hope you are feeling well again!

Lilja

[Gabes-Apg]

my 10 cents worth given the various events of the past 10 years...
and especially since I have had renal impairment

most definately it can.....

Any major inflammation stress happening in another organ/organs (kidney, liver etc) has a flow on effect to the rest of the body.
not sure of the exact science, ie if the adrenals/immune system are part of the process.

So many times when my kidney was/is struggling, I would have 'wet farts' of small quantity.
Even when things were C dominate, this seepage would occur.

it is not a flare per say, it is just how my body reacts... and still does now! only the other day the combo of a stressful day, eating habits a bit out of synch to the norm, humid weather and kidney function reduces and it happens
I get the urgent/pressure feeling, like I need to go the toilet and in my case, I go and nothing comes out no urine, no poop.
30 mins or so later, the wet fart type thing passes, i dont feel it or notice it at the time, it is there on the liner.

I hope you are ok after this second event. do you know if you passed the first one? as I am keenly waiting the biospy information to help you assess the cause....
healing hugs
take care

[nerdhume]

I, of course, have no idea why that would happen Tex. Sorry to hear you have yet another health problem, hope it all passes soon (pun intended). It does explain why there can be a large volume of WD even though we haven't eaten or drank that much

Gabes, I have to wear a liner all the time due to 'wet farts' that may be the usual or just mucous. I never trust a fart when I am awake, I find a toilet. At night I don't always wake up. This, of course, happens more when the MC is active and I have more gas.

[UkuleleLady]

I have no idea Tex, beyond thinking that the stress of passing the stones on surrounding tissues (and the stress from pain) would likely give me problems. It sounds so painful and jarring.

I hope things improve soon, on all fronts. You are in my thoughts and prayers.

Nancy

[JFR]

Sounds nasty Tex. Secretory D was the symptom that got me to this site and led me to following all the great advice this site offers. I have no answers for you. All I have to offer is my hopes for a quick return to health.

Jean

[Polly]

Tex,

Am on the go today, so don't have time to help think through possible mechanisms for this in detail. But, I would guess that yes, there is a definite connection. I recall other threads here where we seemed to notice a connection between urinary tract infections and an MC worsening or flare. I would think that simply having any area of inflammation in the abdomen/pelvis could easily irritate any other organs/tissues in proximitry.

Has everything else remained the same re diet, meds, etc? Higher histamine foods? Antibiotics? Introduction of new foods? Have you checked the labels on your usual foods/meds/supplements to see if any ingredients have changed?

Hope it settles down soon. Please be extra careful to stay well-hydrated. Have you gotten back the analysis of the first stone yet?

Love,

Polly

[tex]

Actually the pain wasn't very bad this time . . . maybe a 4 or 5 on a scale of 10. The first one was a little worse, and the pain got up to maybe an 8 just before it began to fade away. I never noticed when the first one exited, so either it must have broken up/disintegrated, or it's still in my bladder. I'm guessing that it disintegrated.

This event was more a matter of an uncomfortable feeling, than seriously painful, and it didn't last very long. I had some symptoms of a UTI the first time (though I didn't take anything for it), but I had less significant symptoms this time (except for the D).

Still, as Lilja mentioned, I wonder if there might be a low level infection that spread over to what's left of my colon. After all, it's right there next to the bladder and as anyone who has had multiple surgeries is well aware, surgeries promote adhesions between organs in the abdominal cavity. When I had my second surgery (4 years after the first) my guts were attached to themselves, and nearby organs, in many places, requiring hours to surgically separate them. So maybe what's left of my colon is now attached to the wall of my bladder, so if the bladder develops an infection, it can be easily passed to the colon. And as Nancy mentioned, the stress (of repeated kidney stone issues) might be enough to cause the problem, since this may appear to the body to be a chronic stress problem.

And yes, even though it has no way of generating gas (no food residue to ferment), my solid waste disposal system was regularly attempting to do the "wet fart" thing, by sporadic spasms of the sphincter — definitely ala MC. I say "was" because it seems to have settled down today. I hope it's not just "playing 'possum" (ever hear that phrase?), because I had planned to get a doctor's appointment today to see whether we need to do some sort of intervention in case there's a serious infection, but in light of its improved behavior today, I've canceled the plans to call for an appointment.

Thanks, I do appreciate all your thoughts and support.

Tex

[tex]

Hi Polly,

I was writing when you posted, apparently. I've been searching for a reason, and haven't had much luck. I did add one "new" food item about a week ago, some sausage made by a local church as an annual fund-raiser. But they are very strict with their ingredients because the project has grown over the years to be such a huge success that they wouldn't dare take a chance on rocking the boat by changing ingredients. The man in charge of overseeing the sausage-making is a personal friend, and the ingredients are pork, beef, salt, and pepper. Period. I have eaten it for many years, each time they make it, and it has never bothered me before. But I haven't eaten any of it since a couple of days before this began. Due to the time lag, and the simple ingredient list, I doubt that it is connected. Still, after things settle down for a few days, I intend to eat some of it again, just to be sure.

I haven't taken any antibiotics since my surgery (almost 5 years ago), and while I have dropped a couple of medications since then (rasagiline and simvastatin), I haven't added any new ones. And yes, when I realized what was happening, I began rechecking labels, but so far nothing appears to have been changed. Other than a frozen banana (frozen before they get ripe enough to have a high histamine level) on some days, I've been following a relatively low histamine diet.

Yes, I've been making a conscious effort to stay hydrated. As noted in my previous post, I have no idea what happened to the first stone. I'm guessing that it disintegrated. The ER doc told me to catch it if I could, but she didn't give me anything to use, nor did she make any suggestions on what sort of filter to use to try to catch it. This is a teaching hospital, and the ER docs are new and inexperienced (they check with their supervisor, of course) but as difficult as it is to get patients to follow doctor's orders, when they don't actually give any specific orders, I'm sure you can guess how meticulous my "stone-catching" program was. I had good intentions, but since I never felt any indications that it was passing, I never actually tried to catch anything.

And while my ER blood test showed a calcium level at the top end of the range (10.0), there are virtually no sources of oxalytes in my diet, other than iced black tea during the summer, and I haven't had a glass of tea in about a month now. The increased calcium level concerned me, so I had my parathyroids checked, and the results showed that there is nothing wrong there. My result was 17 pg/mL (normal range 12 - 65 pg/mL). And besides, Whole Foods says this about black tea:

Oxalates and kidney stones

The formation of kidney stones containing oxalate is an area of controversy in clinical nutrition with respect to dietary restriction of oxalate. About 80% of kidney stones formed by adults in the U.S. are calcium oxalate stones. It is not clear from the research, however, that restriction of dietary oxalate helps prevent formation of calcium oxalate stones in individuals who have previously formed such stones. Since intake of dietary oxalate accounts for only 10-15% of the oxalate that is found in the urine of individuals who form calcium oxalate stones, many researchers believe that dietary restriction cannot significantly reduce risk of stone formation.

In addition to the above observation, recent research studies have shown that intake of protein, calcium, and water influence calcium oxalate affect stone formation as much as, or more than intake of oxalate. Finally, some foods that have traditionally been assumed to increase stone formation because of their oxalate content (like black tea) actually appear in more recent research to have a preventive effect. For all of the above reasons, when healthcare providers recommend restriction of dietary oxalates to prevent calcium oxalate stone formation in individuals who have previously formed stones, they often suggest "limiting" or "reducing" oxalate intake rather than setting a specific milligram amount that should not be exceeded. "Reduce as much as can be tolerated" is another way that recommendations are often stated.

Can you tell me what oxalates are and in which foods they can be found?

So I'm still wondering where these stones are coming from. I hesitate to call it bad luck though, because compared with what I've heard about kidney stones in others, I've had a walk in the park, so far.

Maybe I need to resume drinking black tea.

Love,
Tex

[Sheila]

Knowing your track record for figuring things out, I'm sure you will eventually discover the cause of this latest problem. I have nothing to offer except good wishes and prayers for an end to your discomfort.

Sheila W

[Deb]

Sorry for your issues, Tex. I hope they resolve soon. I did have to chuckle at this, however.

I hope it's not just "playing 'possum" (ever hear that phrase?),

My daughter's friend recently returned home to find a "dead" possum. She picked it up, put it in her trash can, and put the lid on. She commented on it when she got to work on Facebook and her friends questioned whether it was really dead. When she returned home the lid was off, the possum was gone and she was pretty freaked out! LOL.

[ldubois7]

Sorry you're still having issues, Tex. I hope you feel better very soon, and figure out this latest mystery!

[humbird753]

I am sorry to hear you've had to go through this, Tex. You said you're not sure it's an MC reaction because you haven't experienced any aches or pains. I've never had aches or pains, so I am wondering why you say it may not be an MC reaction.

I hope you are feeling much better. You're in my prayers.

Paula

[tex]

Thanks Sheila and Linda, for your support.


Deb,

That's a neat story.

Thanks for sharing it.

Tex

[tex]

Paula,

I'll have to admit that it seemed suspiciously like an MC reaction. The reason why I brought up the lack of aches and pains is because almost all of my previous reactions involved aches and pains. Except for oats. For some reason or other oats caused plenty of D, but no other obvious symptoms.

But not all of us experience aches and pains with our reactions, of course. And when the disease was originally described, there was no mention of any aches and pains, so most GI specialists assume that when an MC patient reports aches and pains, they have nothing to do with the disease. But of course they do, for those of us who have them.

Tex