Possible Histamine Issue

[jbrohlr]

Hello all,
I had a bout of diarrhea last night starting about 8PM (2 watery stools, within 1 hour of each other), it just came out of the blue - I felt fine the whole day and then that night the fireworks started.

It was puzzling. The only thing out of the ordinary was that the evening on the previous day I spent a couple of hours pulling weeds in my brother's flower garden, which means I was getting a good dose of pollen. I also took a warm (not hot) shower afterwards to make sure and get any ticks off of me. The weather has been nice (and dry) here in Eastern Kansas so I did not break a sweat while I was pulling weeds.

I did have insomnia that night, and some itching. I was fine the next morning and afternoon.

I would chalk this incident up to excess histamine except that I read the blog on histamine vs MCAS where it states that symptoms usually occur within a couple of hours (for HI) and my gut issue started around 24 hours after the pollen exposure. However, the diarrhea did start about an hour or two after my last meal. I'm certain that I have a histamine problem but this is the first time my gut has been involved to this degree. I don't have a history of allergies.

I took 2 Imodium last night. Took an anti-histamine this morning (Allegra) and am going to order a bottle of histamine blocker (DAO). I have not had any diarrhea today- in fact I have yet to have a BM today (it is early evening when I am writing this). My gut has been a little crampy though.

So I'm wondering if maybe I'm all wet on the histamine theory, I've been racking my brain for other possibilities. If, however, it is HI I am wondering how long my histamine levels will stay high once I eliminate the source of the histamine exposure. I am assuming that the levels will die down gradually, which might be optimistic.

Any insight and/or experience on this situation would be greatly appreciated.

John R.

[tex]

Hello John,

My symptoms are itchy hives (rather than digestive issues), but of course I definitely have to watch my high histamine foods. I've noticed since I wrote that article, that if I do some physical work and get really hot and sweaty, and follow that with a warm shower, I tend to have a rather strong reaction (many itchy hives, that last for several days). So apparently, I have both HI and MCAS. While that reaction was going on, I did take a DAO enzyme supplement a time or two (just in case) but if I have a reaction in a similar situation in the future, then I may have to consider taking a second antihistamine on days when I have to do similar work In the future, to see if that will help.

As I mentioned in the article, I previously noticed that taking a warm shower was sufficient in itself to cause me to develop an itchy rash on my ankles, and it's possible that has evolved into hives rather than a rash. In other words, maybe it's the warm showers, rather than the sweaty work. Time will tell. I've started taking slightly less warm showers (but not cool), just in case that might help

Tex

[jbrohlr]

Well, I've had an interesting few days. I'm going to put down the day by day to keep this straight.

Friday, Aug 1: Pulled weeds in evening, warm shower afterwords.

Saturday: Fine all day, WD in the evening.

Sunday: Started taking antihistamine (Allegra) in the AM along with half a zinc tablet and vitamin C. No BM that day.

Monday: No BM. Antihistamine, 1/2 zinc tablet, vitamin C.

Tuesday: Very small BM (#2 bristol). Antihistamine, 1/2 zinc tablet, vitamin C.

Wednesday: Very small BM (#2 bristol). I fasted today (1 small meal in the AM). Antihistamine, 1/2 zinc tablet, vitamin C. I suspected the antihistamine was causing constipation.

Thursday: No antihistamine but 1 zinc tablet and vitamin C. About 12:30PM I had what started out as a normal stool that turned into WD! I was on and off the toilet for half an hour, and there was a lot of intestinal discomfort (burning sensation). Finally took an Imodium.

So I'm thinking that this is either a histamine issue, or I ended up with bile in my colon due to the fasting on Wednesday. I'm also rechecking the ingredients in my zinc tablet (that I started last Sunday, 5 days ago) in case I'm reacting to something.

Wish me luck,
John R.

[jbrohlr]

O.k. I've been looking into my situation. I did not find any ingredients in my zinc tablets that stood out, BUT, it turns out that zinc itself could be the culprit. From different sources on the internet, I found that the recommended daily intake of zinc is roughly 11mg (with 40mg upper limit). The last several days I have been taking 25mg of zinc (with no copper supplement); and today, I took a full tablet which is 50mg.
I am most probably getting more than enough zinc from all the lamb I eat.

Looks like I was overdoing the vitamin C as well. The recommended upper limit of vitamin C daily is 90mg for adult males - I was taking 1300mg. The sites that I went to claim that diarrhea is a side effect of excess vitamin C.

I also read that the consequences of excess zinc are pretty dire if and when it gets to the level of zinc poisoning. So hopefully my diarrhea today is the result of my colon purging the excess zinc/vitamin C - we'll see in a couple of days.

Thinking of sending my colon a thank-you note.

John R.

[tex]

This seems to be an interesting episode. I'm looking forward to your next installment on this thread, especially since I've been taking 1000 mg of vitamin C, and a combination capsule with 50 mg zInc, and 2 mg of copper, daily, for years.

Wayne

[jbrohlr]

Well Tex, your experience tosses a wrench into my zinc hypothesis. The only thing I'm speculating about is that maybe a bad reaction to lots of zinc is related to the fact the I can't take Mg orally.

I did quit on the zinc (and vitamin C, although I don't think that C was too much of a problem).

Something else I noticed:

I had a WD episode on August 2; for 4 consecutive days previous, I had a couple of handfuls of pistachios each day. I stopped with the pistachios (I ran out of them) and started the Allegra, as I stated before. I was ok till August 7nth when I had that fierce bout of WD (the one I blamed on zinc).

I did well after that for 4 days. August 11nth I had pistachios in the afternoon. The next day (August 12) I was in and out of the bathroom 3 times with loose stools (#5 and #6) along with a cranky colon.

Same pattern these last 4 days - no problem (taking Allegra in the AM) for a few days, yesterday I had a handful of pistachios and today I was in and out of the bathroom with loose stools and abdominal cramping and burning.

So, I believe the writing is on the wall for pistachios. I threw away the pistachios that I had left and vowed to not eat them again.

Looking up info on pistachios I found sites that state that although pistachios are relatively low in histamine they could be (along with other nuts) "histamine liberators", provoking mast cells to release histamine. Below is an excerpt from one of the sites:

Pistachios, like many other nuts, have been studied for their impact on histamine level. Some scientific reports suggest that most nuts, including pistachios, are low in histamine, but they could potentially delay the breakdown of histamine within the body. This is because nuts, in general, have been known to have the potential to inhibit diamine oxidase, an enzyme that helps in breaking down and metabolizing histamine within the digestive tract. However, there is no concrete evidence to classify pistachios as histamine liberators. Histamine liberators are usually foods or substances which encourage the release of histamine in the body, irrespective of their own histamine content. Therefore, while pistachios itself might not be high in histamine, in people with compromised histamine metabolism, their consumption could result in an elevated histamine level due to this delay in breakdown. It is also important to note that individual reactions can vary greatly. While some individuals with histamine intolerance may respond negatively to eating pistachios, others may not experience any harmful effects. Currently, specific properties of pistachios and their potential to lower histamine are not widely researched areas. The effects of pistachios, and nuts in general, on histamine activity, largely remain a topic open for further scientific investigations.
References: Aidan JC, et al. [Biogenic amines and polyamines: similar biochemistry for different physiological missions and pathological events](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12593740/). Med Sci (Paris). 2003 Feb;19(2):191-6. Maintz L, et al. [Evidence and hypothesis: A role of histamine intolerance in atopic dermatitis](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12702098/). Acta Derm Venereol. 2001 Nov-Dec;81(6):421-4. This product has not been researched well enough to publish any information, our team is working hard on this. Data will be available soon.

[tex]

John,

First, I apologize for possibly misleading you about the zinc. I didn't mean to infer that zinc couldn't be causing a problem for you. I shouldn't have mentioned the things that I've been taking regularly. That was meant to illustrate how different we all are, and I didn't mean to infer that those items are safe for everyone, especially if histamine issues are involved. That said, zinc should be generally safe. Here's some information about how zinc may be associated with MCAS or histamine intolerance:

Zinc is a cofactor for DAO activity. Without adequate zinc, DAO function may be reduced, which could impair histamine breakdown and worsen histamine intolerance symptoms. Low zinc status has been linked to higher histamine levels in some studies, though clinical trials directly testing zinc supplementation in histamine intolerance are lacking.

Mast cells contain and release histamine, tryptase, prostaglandins, and other mediators when activated. Zinc deficiency has been shown to increase mast cell degranulation in experimental models, possibly making them more unstable and prone to releasing histamine. Conversely, adequate zinc levels may help stabilize mast cells and reduce inappropriate histamine release. Zinc also has general anti-inflammatory effects. On the other hand, excess zinc (high-dose supplements) can cause copper deficiency and anemia, so supplementation should be balanced and monitored.

I'm inclined to agree with what you read about nuts. They don't always fall into neat categories. Some of them, for example, are sometimes high in histamine because they have a high moisture content when harvested (although the shell may be dry), and if they're not promptly dried, They may be high in histamine. And as the article mentions, they may be histamine liberators. I've found some nuts (and some not butters) to be relatively low and histamine, while others caused me to react, suggesting that they had a high histamine level. I mostly avoid nut butters these days, and strictly limit nuts in my diet.

Tex

[jbrohlr]

I am probably posting this too soon (before this situation is resolved) but it turns out that I had quite a bit of mold in the basement that I live in. There is a crack in the basement foundation that was (is) allowing water to seep into a corner. That, along with the high humidity in the basement allowed mold to get a foothold - I've taken measures. It didn't look like black mold but what do I know.

Anyway, I am thinking that the mold has been around for quite a while, and possibly my exposure to it was what was creating this hair trigger I have with histamine intolerance. Went on the internet of course and many channels claim that there is a high correlation with mold and histamine intolerance and MCAS. There were even claims that mold exposure causes MCAS, which I'm skeptical about but can't dismiss since at least black mold has been known to kill people.

I believe I have gotten the worst of the mold cleared out and have taken temporary measures to keep water from seeping in. Also have a dehumidifier running. My brother is going to have the company that will epoxy the foundation crack also do a mold test. Also going to try to rent or buy a Hepa filter. I have been sleeping upstairs for the last two nights and my gut has been pretty calm.

Wish me luck, and a dry basement.
John R.

[tex]

It sounds like you may have found the problem. There are several species of aspergillus molds, for example, that can cause histamine problems, and for all I know there may be many more that cause histamine problems. I've always suspected that molds are part of my lifelong allergy problems, because living on a farm, some types of molds are almost always present, somewhere on the farm.

And a few years ago, we had a neighbor (another farmer) die from black mold. So as you mentioned, it can indeed kill people.

I hope this discovery will allow you to resolve your histamine problems.

Tex