Tex (or anyone) re: gluten

[Alice]

Tex,

I think I've seen the answer to this question but don't remember what is was !

Is it possible for gluten to be destroyed during the manufacturing of an item?
Item in question is a homeopathic liquid that's 51% alcohol from ethanol (wheat).

Thanks!

Alice

[mle_ii]

Possible yes, whether it's happening here or in other cases I wouldn't know. Though if the ethanol is distilled I would lean a lot more towards the yes.

[tex]

Hi Alice,

Yes, Mike is correct. Ethanol does not contain gluten, (unless some is intentionally blended back in, after the distillation process). It's not that the gluten is destroyed in the process of making ethanol - what actually happens, is that the gluten cannot volatilize at distillation temperatures, so none of it vaporizes, which prevents it from passing into the condensation chamber of the still. IOW, 100% of the gluten remains with the grain "mash".

For many years, most celiac sites listed grain alcohol on their "forbidden" lists, because it was "suspect", and no one ever bothered to check out the chemistry involved. In the last five or six years, though, I believe they have all come around to the realization that transmission of gluten through the distillation process cannot occur, so alcohol, vinegar, etc., is gluten free, except, of course, for certain blended products, in which some of the un-distilled liquids are blended back into the distilled products, (an example of this is malt vinegar).

Tex

[Alice]

Thanks to both of you for your answers! I knew vinegars were ok , but didn't really understand the process enough to apply it to other formulations with alcohol. Now I do! I thought that Tex might be able to explain it to me and you came through, Tex.

Alice

[piemom]

I believe they've also now said that regular vanilla is ok, where for years it wasn't.

There's a another very interesting discussion on celiac.com about why gluten can't be killed by heat. The link is:

http://www.glutenfreeforum.com/index.ph ... opic=33395

[tex]

Wendy,

That's an interesting discussion, and that's a topic that is sorely in need of some experimental research. I'm inclined to agree that bleach is not likely to deactivate gluten, since most flour manufacturers bleach their flours during manufacture, and they certainly wouldn't do anything to risk the viability of the gluten. since it is the component responsible for the most desirable baking characteristics.

Heat, though, is another matter entirely. Sufficient heat will indeed destroy gluten, (and virtually anything else - sufficient heat will even destroy steel). On a comparison scale, though, baking temperatures are quite low, and certainly will not deactivate the gliadins.

If properly done, (I do it quite often), grills can be easily sterilized by the use of sufficient heat. I'm talking real heat here - keeping the grid close to an intensely hot fire, for a length of time sufficient to physically burn everything off the grid, in every nook and cranny. Then I rub it down with a crumpled-up wad of aluminum foil, and follow that with a wad of paper towels, to remove what's left of the burned residue.

Many people make the mistake of rubbing the grid with a brass or stainless steel bristle brush, but that brush is virtually always contaminated with gluten, because someone else will almost inevitably rub that brush on the grid before the combustion process is complete, thus contaminating the brush with gluten. Once a brush is contaminated, in my opinion, it will never be safely decontaminated, because to do so, would require enough heat that it would melt the plastic handle, (or burn the handle, if made of wood), of the brush, before the bristles would be completely decontaminated. (Besides, there's no telling what else is on that brush, after it has been in use for a while). Of course, if a grill is never contaminated by gluten-containing food items, then all of this is not at issue. I find, though, that anytime anyone else, (read that, anyone who is not known to be gluten sensitive), uses a grill, it will be promptly contaminated, because they are going to heat buns, or something else, that contains gluten.

I can't find any information on the web, concerning documented research, directly related to the use of high temperatures to deactivate gluten. However, based on common combustion characteristics for similar materials, (and using common engineering analytical techniques, I submit the following analysis, which you can classify as a WAEG, (Wild-Assed Educated Guess), if you prefer. LOL.

One of the most persistent infectious agents known, is found in a related class of diseases, which includes scrapies, (in sheep), BSE, (aka mad-cow disease, in cattle), chronic wasting disease, (in deer), and Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, (in humans). These diseases tend to deposit protease resistant proteins, (PRP), in the brains of infected subjects. "Normal" processing temperatures do not deactivate the infectious nature of whatever component propagates these diseases. I suggest that the gliadins in gluten, are possibly as persistant as the infections agents connected with these diseases, and I further suggest that temperatures that will "deactivate" the infectious agents found in these diseases, should deactivate the gliadins in gluten.

It has been established that the threshold for destruction of such proteins begins in the area of around 600 degrees C, (1,112 F), and is complete at somewhere around or below the 1000 degrees C, (1,832 F), level. This can be readily seen in the research report at this site:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... &tools=bot

Ergo, it is certainly very likely that normal flame temperatures of ordinary hydrocarbon fuels, are capable of deactivating the gliadins in gluten, since those temperatures are in the range of 2,200 degrees C, (4,000 F). Obviously, though, since heat transfer is time-dependent, sufficient time must be allowed for heat transfer to complete the job. Also, it is clear that this is beyond the limits normally encountered in cooking procedures. For example, polytetrafluoroethylene, (aka as Teflon, used in many cooking utensils), will begin to break down, and emit toxic gases, at around 300 degrees C, (572 F).

The bottom line is - it can be done, but it certainly isn't easy, nor is it practical, in most situations other than using a grill.

Thanks for posting the link.

Tex

[piemom]

Tex, how on earth do you know everything about everything??? You are by far the most knowledgable person I don't know (wish I could say I knew you in person!). You never cease to amaze me with the information you come up with.

As always, thanks for sharing such interesting information about the heat. It all makes sense to me, but what I still don't get is why gluten sticks to so many things like a colandar, metal pans, etc. I can see how it sticks to the cutting board and the wooden spoons, but why doesn't it wash off the metal surfaces? (barring those that have scratches, of course).

Are you "fanatical" about gluten? I know you can't tolerate it (and oats, clearly! ), but do you have gluten eating people in your house, and if so, how do you handle it? I'm still trying to work out the logistics of having some eating and some not eating it, though we're still on the fence about whether the kids are going to be eating it or not (Enterolab results due back on them next week). Do I REALLY need to be wearing a mask and gloves when I handle anything with gluten? Do I really need to get new pots and pans, etc.? How far do I need to take this? I obviously want to be healthy and feel good (no, not just good, GREAT!), but to what extent do I have to go to do it? It did occur to me after the Predisone thread that perhaps I'm still getting glutened, which is why I'm still having the D. Either that or my intestines are just so damaged that it will take a very long time for them to heal...

Anyway.... I feel a bit like I'm

Thanks!

Wendy

[tex]

Hi Wendy,

Thanks for the compliment, but as I've pointed out before, I just know a little about a lot of things, but not a lot about anything.

The reason why gluten sticks so well to so many things, is because that's it's job. It gets it's name from it's glutinous properties, and the definition of glutinous is: gluey; viscid; sticky

As gfp pointed out in the discussion you cited, if you wash wheat flour, after everything else washes away, the gluten is what remains, because it's pretty good glue.

Yes, I am "fanatical" about gluten. I've been on a GF diet for five years, eight months, and fourteen days now, and if I've ever eaten a trace of gluten in that time, I'm not aware of it. It's possible that I may have accidentally ingested trace amounts, because I may not react until the accrued damage reaches a certain threshold, but I do whatever is necessary to avoid it 100%.

I'm the only one in the house on a GF diet, and, I'm the only one in my family, and my circle of friends, who avoids gluten. Whenever there is any doubt about a food item, I pass, and it gets easier every year. It doesn't bother me at all if I'm the only one not eating, in a group. I find that most people I am with, have a problem with that, though. They simply can't stand to see someone not eating. A few of my friends have insisted on learning to cook GF, and I occasionally eat the most basic of items that they cook, (usually only grilled meat), and then, only if I am on hand to watch then do it.

After months of practice, I still catch most of them occasionally making a "dumb" mistake, (such as placing a GF item on a surface where something with gluten was previously located). Usually, they realize their mistake, soon after they do it, but I get the distinct impression that if I hadn't noticed, they would have chosen to ignore it, rather than to see me with nothing to eat. LOL. Friends have a habit of "killing you with kindness" - sort of like doing you in with "friendly fire".

Most pots and pans, and other utensils can be cleaned adequately, but unless you are really meticulous, it's easy to overlook trace amounts. I would assume that pans with soft coatings, (such as teflon), would be the riskiest, since they are easily scratched. I try to use the same pots and pans, etc., whenever possible, and keep them segregated from items that are used for gluten-containing foods. Unless you are allergic to gluten, (and probably none of us are allergic to it), getting it on your skin, and even inhaling the dust, should not be a problem, (unless you get it in your mouth).

I have a seed-cleaning plant, and when grains are re-cleaned, there is always some fine grain dust in the air, no matter how careful you are. Just unloading it, exposes you to a lot of dust. Anyway, I gave up trying to wear a dust mask all the time, (they don't do a 100% job, anyway), and discovered that it didn't seem to make any difference. Before my gut healed, I was also corn intolerant, and for years, I was running around 10 to 15 million pounds of corn through the plant every year, with no apparent reactions due to the corn dust in the air. I also cleaned a few hundred thousand pounds of wheat every year, and I watched myself closely, during, and after those projects, but I never could tell that it caused, or contributed to, any reactions.

Okay, here are my thoughts on the Prednisone: Prednisone is an anti-inflammatory, and it's highly effective on most IBDs, usually in a short amount of treatment time. It's not 100% effective, but I'm not aware that the refractive cases have been researched enough to pinpoint the cause of those failed treatments. I'm just guessing here, but I suspect that it would not necessarily stop a reaction that was caused by candida, or bacterial overgrowth, for example. Polly could shed some light on this, but she seems to be pretty busy, these days. Maybe Mike has come across more information on this topic, in his web searches.

I don't know if you have read any of the older posts that referred to this, but some of us, (it was certainly true in my case), felt so wonderful, after getting rid of all our intolerances, and healing, that we felt better than we had felt in decades. In my case, for example, I think that I posted something to the effect that I felt like climbing the highest hill, and shouting to the world, about how great I felt. You'll see what I mean, when you get there, but I'm beginning to be concerned that there's another issue that might have to be addressed, before you get to the euphoria phase. IOW, the inability of the Prednisone to stabilize the behavior of your GI tract, is becoming a bit worrisome to me.

Tex

[mle_ii]

Okay, here are my thoughts on the Prednisone: Prednisone is an anti-inflammatory, and it's highly effective on most IBDs, usually in a short amount of treatment time. It's not 100% effective, but I'm not aware that the refractive cases have been researched enough to pinpoint the cause of those failed treatments. I'm just guessing here, but I suspect that it would not necessarily stop a reaction that was caused by candida, or bacterial overgrowth, for example. Maybe Mike has come across more information on this topic, in his web searches

Not specifically, but then I haven't looked for that. Though from what I have read I would imagine that any glucocorticoid would not be a good thing for candida or bacterial overgrowth in the long term. In the short term, perhaps, as it would indeed decrease inflamation, but since it also slows down immune reaction then the candida and bacterial overgrowth would be allowed to get more of a foot hold in the body. In fact in the short term it would "look" like the glucocorticoid is working, but once you stop then it would be back in full force and perhaps worse than before. Though again it would depend on the "why" of how you got to that stage in the first place.

So for example let's say you had a leaky gut and this was your only cause, well since glucocorticoids close tight junctions, then perhaps if you took this for the right amount of time you might be cured. Why because your body didn't react in an immune response to the bacteria, and since everything else was fine your body went back into it's normal mode of clearing the small intestines of high counts of bacteria, so SIBO is gone and cured by the glucocorticoids.

Let's take another example, lets say that your bacterial overgrowth is due to low/no acid production. And let's also say that gluccocortiods have no effect on stomach acid production (I'm not sure, haven't looked this up). So you take the glucocorticoids, get better due to decreased tight junctions, decreased inflamation/immune response, etc. Stop taking them and since the original reason you got into this state was not fixed, low/no stomach acid production, then you end up back and perhaps worse than you were before.

Mike