New with question about mast cells and LC

[tex]

Faith,

I had noticed that you posted the information about Histame in your journal. Maybe your pharmacist can tell you exactly what it contains.

Guess I should just try to Gastrocrom and see how it works, be patient, and when necessary move on to the next step. It's clear there are no easy answers.

My training is in engineering, and that's exactly the way that engineers tackle complex projects. You break the project down into smaller, individual problems that are doable, resolve them, and then put it all together. In the case of medical issues such as immune reactions, that would imply resolving each issue as you come to it, and then proceeding to the next one, just as you described.

If you can't eat any types of meat, how on earth do you get enough protein? It takes protein to heal tissue.

Tex

[faithberry]

Tex,

I found this on the Enterolab site, under FAQ's on Test Results, Are the numeric values of antigliadin antibody a measure of severity?

This is because the main perpetrator of the immune response to gluten is not antibody but T lymphocytes (T cells) producing tissue-damaging chemicals called cytokines and chemokines.

So this must be the chemical mediators Dr. Fine refers to in our previous discussion above, not mast cell mediators.

[faithberry]

Tex,

You wrote:

If you can't eat any types of meat, how on earth do you get enough protein? It takes protein to heal tissue.

I've been taking Solgar Essential Amino Acids, 75 mg of each. I haven't taken higher amounts, as I have trouble with larger amounts of histidine. I was previously a big meat eater, so I think I have enough amino acids somewhere in my body to last for awhile. I've had a protein analysis done a few times recently , and so far it's always come back normal. According to WHO standards, I need about 34 mg of protein a day so I shoot for at least that. I'm hoping the Gastrocrom will work so I'll be able to expand my diet a bit. I get serious pain when I eat meat, so it's definitely not an option at this stage.

I like the engineering analogy. I'll definitely use that approach.[/quote]

[tex]

So this must be the chemical mediators Dr. Fine refers to in our previous discussion above, not mast cell mediators.

Right. I don't do much reading about chemical messengers involved in reactions, but I recall seeing those frequently mentioned, though I suspect there are also others.

I've been taking Solgar Essential Amino Acids, 75 mg of each.

Hmmmmmmm. I've never even considered that type of approach. That's kind of the opposite extreme of the paleo diet, (from an evolution standpoint). That approach means that you are relying on the formulators of that product to "get it right", so that you don't come up deficient in the long run. IOW, you're feeding your individual cells, rather than feeding your body. Interesting approach.

Tex

[faithberry]

It's not a permanent solution!

[faithberry]

Here's a link to information about the Food Allergen Cellular Test from Genova Diagnostics Europe:

http://www.gdx.uk.net/index.php?option= ... v=doc&id=4

This looks like a very interesting test as it tests reactions at the level of white blood cells, including reactions that occur due to the release of mediators from different cell sub-populations, including mast cells.

To get the full information download the pdf called 'test description' and the pdf call 'FACtest Deconfusing Allergies," which can be found by clicking on 'additional information.'

They differentiate between IgG mediated reactions (antibodies/antigens, leaky gut) and delayed reactions due to release of mediators at the cellular level, as well as the IgE immediate allergic reaction and basic intolerance like food intolerance.

Dr. Fine's test of course determined my IgA reactions to gluten and casein, but I think this test would zero in on the kinds of food reactions I'm having now. It might also be useful to you Dee since mast cells are the major player in 'hives.

[Dee]

Still Trying To Figure This All Out!!!!
Intestinal mast cell responses in idiopathic inflammatory bowel disease. Histamine release from human intestinal mast cells in response to gut epithelial proteins.

Fox CC, Lichtenstein LM, Roche JK.

Division of Allergy and Clinical Immunology, Johns Hopkins Asthma and Allergy Center, Baltimore, Maryland.

Mucosal and submucosal mast cell hyperplasia is a feature of the chronic inflammatory bowel diseases--ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease. The mast cells are often seen to be degranulated in areas of active disease, suggesting that the inflammatory mediators released from these cells contribute to the pathophysiology of these disorders. We examined the hypothesis that epithelial cell-derived proteins, intestinal epithelial cell-associated components (ECAC), interact with the mast cells of patients with chronic inflammatory bowel disease to trigger the local release of mast cell mediators. Aliquots of human intestinal mucosal mast cell suspensions obtained from surgically resected specimens of colon or small intestine (ulcerative colitis, 12; Crohn's disease, 3; histologically normal controls, 8) were incubated with 1-100 micrograms/ml of colon or small bowel-derived murine ECAC or control kidney protein, or 1 microgram/ml goat anti-human IgE positive control for 30 min at 37 degrees C. Supernatants were analyzed in duplicate for histamine content by fluorometric assay. The median percent total histamine released by chronic inflammatory bowel disease mast cell suspensions to colonic epithelium-derived protein (ECAC-C) was 4% histamine (range 0-20%), such that the distribution of histamine release values in inflammatory bowel disease specimens was significantly different from the distribution of values in mast cells taken from normal mucosa (median 0%, P < 0.05). The median histamine release by all chronic inflammatory bowel disease specimens was also increased in response to the ECAC preparations derived from small bowel epithelium in that a third of the inflammatory bowel disease specimens showed greater than 10% histamine release to ECAC.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

Publication Types:
Comparative Study
Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't
Research Support, U.S. Gov't, P.H.S.

[faithberry]

Thanks for sharing your research results, Dee. I wish you luck in figuring it out!

[Dee]

This is what I received from my daughter's boyfriend who is an MD and has his Ph D in molecular & cellular biology.
Tryptase or CD117 (these stain Mast Cells in tissue biopsies - they are markers used in tissue biopsies to try and figure out the number of mast cells present)
Blood test that can be run:
CBC with differential - look at eosinophil level - this may be the best initial screening test. The level of eosinophils may be elevated if there is chronic allergen exposure (it is also useful for telling if there is something seriously out of wack)

If you speak to an immunologist or allergist then they would be able to use the following tests. But they need to be interpreted by an immunolgist or allergist. Ben said he would not be comfortable with anyone other than a specialist interpreting the results of these kinds of tests.

Serum tryptase (can be useful in detecting problems with mast cells)
Plasma IgE (can be useful in hypersensitivity conditions)
and maybe even flow cytometric analysis of peripheral blood for immunophenotyping (definitely wouldn't go this far until an allergist/immunologist is on board)

Also, he said the correlation between mast cells and histamine is that mast cells are pact full of histamines (seriously, check out the picture - all the purple granules are histamines).

His first guess on what would cause a reaction was an allergen.

He said the Zantac makes perfect sense for the hives as it controls one of the components of inflammation/edema which is histamine.

He also said the abdomen discomfort could be indigestion (acid reflux) which is specifically treated with H2 Blockers - so he said that relief of that sypmtom with the Zantac makes sense as well

[faithberry]

One of the key factors in histamine problems is that if you eat meat of any time, it must be very fresh. Guidelines here:

http://www.plantpoisonsandrottenstuff.i ... mines.aspx

from Plant Poisons and Rotten Stuff site, Minimizing Amine Formation in meat, dairy, eggs.

This is even more so the case with fish, which needs to be eaten like the day its caught! Meath broths are a major trigger for me, as the longer it cooks, the more amines are formed. Leftover foods also have a build-up of amines.

Sorry, it's so complicated and there isn't one place with all the facts.

This may not be the case in hives, where people may react to just specific foods, although some people find the low histamine diet helps them.

[faithberry]

There is another excellent article on Histamine Intolerance by a nutritionist at Vickerstaff Health Services:

www.allergynutrition.com/faq.php

This is the FAQ page. Click on 'Histamine Intolerance', then 'Question' and then click on the 'Answer.' At the end of the question there is an opportunity to download a pdf called 'Histamine Intolerance,' which is the terrific 4-page article.

I learned in this article that lectins can trigger histamine release without an antibody-antigen reaction.

Vickerstaff-Joneja is the nutritionist who developed the histamine restricted diet posted at the International Chronic Urticaria Society site.

[faithberry]

I found this message posted on the Mastocytosis Yahoo groups very enlightening. Now I know why corn starch is such a big problem for me.

Yes, most protein powders, vegetable protein or broths (as in most canned tunas), are hydrolyzed... another word for msg in the sense that msg is made from a hydrolyzing process and release histamines; and other additives, such as autolyzed yeast, are also hydrolyzed... you can even make an 'msg' from long cooking of meats to release the proteins through the breakdown of the protein matter. As one who is highly msg sensitive, I can not eat anything from hydrolyzing, including modified food starches or even corn starch, or citric acid which is made from hydrolyzing corn (yes!), or artificial or natural flavorings as they are all made from a soup of hydrolyzed chemicals... hydrolyzing does release histamines ... even hair perms have hydrolyzed components, so again, a no no from anyone who is msg sensitive. When you think about it, almost everything in a can or box is made from breaking down and then remixing. Most pills have a binder so I have reactions from them as well. When I was at my worst I couldn't even have concentrated juices, now I can.

[tex]

Faith,

I responded to this in your Journal, but since you posted it here, also, I'm copying the text of my response here, also, just in case someone might be confused by some of the author's remarks.

are hydrolyzed... another word for msg in the sense that msg is made from a hydrolyzing process

FWIW, unless I am misreading this, the author seems to be a bit confused about how MSG is made, and exactly what hydrolyzed means. From a chemistry viewpoint, the definition of hydrolysis simply refers to the use of water, to split a molecule, in order to form a different compound, or compounds. No other processing is required, in order to fulfill the requirements of that definition. IOW, the material is simply added to water, (or vice versa), and the transformation occurs, (though in actual use, of course, other processes are indeed often involved, though not necessarily in the same step).

That is not how MSG is made, however. True, up until about 40 years ago, it was made by hydrolysis, but since the 1960s, commercial MSG has been, (and still is), produced by the fermentation of starch, sugar beets, sugar cane, or molasses. Prior to the 1960s, MSG was prepared by the hydrolysis of wheat gluten, and that's presumably why many celiacs believe that they cannot safely eat MSG. Obviously, that's an obsolete belief. That's not to say, of course, that all celiacs can safely use MSG, because they may be intolerant of it for reasons other than gluten.

Probably, what tripped up the author, in addition to the obsolete belief that MSG is made from wheat gluten, is the fact that MSG, in its pure form, undergoes a hydrolysis process in the human body, after it is ingested. When dissolved in water, (or saliva), MSG splits into sodium cations and the anionic form of glutamic acid, which, of course is a naturally occurring amino acid).

Also, even if MSG were actually made by hydrolysis, that would not confer any "license" to redefine the process of hydrolysis, to imply that any process involving hydrolysis, is in any way equivalent to "making an MSG" - that would be a pretty broad stretch of the imagination.

That doesn't imply that everything the author said is without merit, it simply calls into question her understanding of what actually is going on with MSG.

Tex

[faithberry]

Tex,

I don't think Judy is saying that this is how MSG is produced. I think she is saying that MSG is a by-product of the process of hydrolyzing proteins. Since I lifted this out of context, the piece about protein may have been missing! Also she may be confusing the process of hydrolyzing in general with hydrolyzing proteins, which I gather from what you say is different.

In the book, No More Heartburn by Sherry Rogers, MD, there's a table of sources that contain MSG. She lists 'hydrolyzed protein (any protein that is hydrolyzed) as a source of MSG. I've seen the same statement in several different places.

This doesn't exactly explain corn starch and citric acid. About citric acid, Wikipedia says:

In this production technique, which is still the major industrial route to citric acid used today, cultures of Aspergillus niger are fed on a sucrose or glucose-containing medium to produce citric acid. The source of sugar is corn steep liquor,[9] molasses, hydrolyzed corn starch or other inexpensive sugary solutions.[10] After the mold is filtered out of the resulting solution, citric acid is isolated by precipitating it with lime (calcium hydroxide) to yield calcium citrate salt, from which citric acid is regenerated by treatment with sulfuric acid.

Dr. Rogers lists yeast extract, yeast food, autolyzed yeast, yeast nutrient as sources of MSG as well. So perhaps it's the yeast cultures????

From my own personal experience, I cannot tolerate corn starch, citric acid, protein powders which are typically hydrolyzed, and enzymes grown on Aspergillus niger, which make my whole body burn for hours. There seems to be some connection.

I'm putting things in my journal to keep a record of them, since one day this thread will be history! Sorry if that creates confusion.

[tex]

Faith,

What you are saying is quite correct. It's that simple phrase, "are hydrolyzed... another word for msg", that I have a problem with. That's taking way too much liberty with syntax. No matter how you cut it, any form of the word "hydrolyzed", is not interchangeable with the words "monosodium glutamate". While it's true that some processes involving hydrolysis result in a "natural" form of MSG, that is certainly not true for all instances of hydrolyzation. For example, the hydrolysis of sucrose, yields glucose and fructose - no MSG.

I'm not saying that the gist of the concept that she is attempting to describe is wrong, I'm just saying that it's inappropriate, (and inaccurate), for her to claim that the word "hydrolysis", has the same meaning as the term used to identify the compound known as MSG - they do not have the same meaning, and are therefore not interchangeable.

Please don't apologize - what you are saying is quite correct. I totally agree with what you have said. It's your reference's implying that all processes that involve hydrolysis, result in the formation of MSG, that I disagree with. Her making such a claim, serves no purpose, except to confuse the issue, and it's very misleading.

FWIW, I couldn't tolerate any of the things you named either, (corn starch, citric acid, etc.), when I was still healing, but now that I have been in remission for a few years, none of them bother me, including MSG, (whether natural or synthetic).

Please don't allow my ramblings, to affect your writing about your research and your thoughts. I truly enjoy reading your posts, and I learn a lot from them, It's just that I have a problem with some authors misusing language, (and/or science), to make their point, (and I'm not talking about what you wrote - I'm talking about what your reference wrote). That doesn't mean that I disagree with their point - I just have a problem with their methods. Consider it a little idiosyncrasy of mine.

Tex