One month off Enrocort and GI correspondence

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ant
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One month off Enrocort and GI correspondence

Post by ant »

Dear All

One month from coming 100% off Entocort (after a year) I am, so far, doing pretty well. Just one D and 80% firmish or Norman BMs....fingers crossed.

Tex, from your comment in another post it seems that this means I have crossed my Rubicon. I am OK with this and I think/hope I have identified my full set of intolerance (G,D,S, other legumes, egg whites and nightshades). I intend to stay as strict as possible to not eating these.


Here is some recent correspondence between my GI and I...

I wrote a letter to him (that way he can't charge me for a 'consultation'). I only told him what I thought would not make him mad - so no mention of Enterolab or (shock horror) an internet support group of 650 people with MC (bigger then most clinical research samples). I was testing him (but he did not know that). I wanted to inform him that diet appeared to be important and see how he reacted. here is my letter:


Dear Dr XXX,

Firstly may I thank you for three things:

1. The Dx of Lymphocytic Colitis, that removed much mystery (and thus fear) from my chronic symptoms
2. The medical treatments that you put me on (Pepto Bismol, followed by Entocort), both of which helped considerably in reducing symptoms and bringing my life back to a semblance of normality.
3. Re-embursing the unused Salofalk

I thought you might find my journey to (hopefully) remission useful......

When I saw you at the end of last year there was evidence of slow improvement to my symptoms, but flares where still occurring and I was still on 9mg Entocort a day. You suggested a complete taper off from Entocort and an overlapping switch to mesalazine (Salofalk). Given a positive, if erratic trend, on Entocort I decided to try and taper of Entocort without using the mesalazine (I was happy the mesalazine was there in case I gave up on the attempt)

I also had deduced from my food diary and stool consistency/bowel movement/bloating/gut rumbling signs that certain foods where aggravating symptoms (up to 48 hrs after consumption). This was complicated since, given an inflamed gut, some foods might have been intolerances (stimulating an immune reaction) while others just irritants (causing similar symptoms).

I started taking diet seriously about a month after starting Entocort (about a year ago). Initially I cut out gluten and dairy, then soy, then all legumes and nightshades. From January this year I tapered off Entocort. Without the prop of Entocort I still had a few flares and could always trace these back to diet "adventures". I treated these flares with a short burst of Pepto Bismol and immodium and a return to very safe diet (steamed rice, chicken, fish, well cocked vegetables).

I am now treating myself only with diet and as my gut continues - hopefully - to settle down, i will attempt to re introduce foods e.g. uncooked vegetables, potatoes and some cheeses. Given my reactions to gluten I have no desire to ever eat it again.

It is also interesting that a bone density scan (last Nov) showed I have osteoporosis. The first symptoms of this (rib fracture with minimal stress) was after about 6 months of chronic diarrhea, while I was still on the Pepto Bismol treatment and before I started Entocort. This suggests something was causing this before steroids. E.g. malnutrition??. I note that celiacs have above average incidence to osteoporosis. I also had significant vitamin and mineral deficiencies shown at the same time. Very low vitamin C, D, B12 and Folic Acid (while testosterone and levels of calcium in serum were normal).

I will continue to supplement until mineral and vitamin levels are normal. I believe that as my stools return to normal, I will absorb more nutrients. (My stools are firm but some still float - suggesting possible continued malabsorption).

This is a long note, but I hope useful feedback. Again many thanks for setting me on a path to wellness.
This was his reply:
I am sorry that I could not speak to you directly when you called into the Clinic last week

Thank you for the email summary. A few comments from me:

1. You were not meant to stay on Entocort long-term but I am delighted that both the Pepto-Bismol and Entocort did help relieve symptoms.

2. Dietary manipulation is always worthwhile. The only thing that I might have expected to help would be reduction in the lactose-containing foods and the wheat products.

3. Improvement after stopping gluten does not necessarily equate to having Coeliac Disease. If you wish to know whether you are Coeliac then you would need to return to a full gluten diet for three weeks before having and upper GIT endoscopy performed - the logic being that Coeliac Disease is diagnosed most effectively on a biopsy material taken from the duodenum.

4. Osteoporosis is, unfortunately, quite common in otherwise healthy man. It does not necessarily imply either that you are malabsorbing or that you are taking an agent which is interfering with bone metabolsim.

5. Finally, whether a stool floats or sinks does not depend on malabsorbition but simply on the amount of gas contained in the stool volume.

I would be interested in any comments.

Best wishes, Ant
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Post by starfire »

I'll bet you are just aching to go back on gluten for 3 weeks so you can have that endoscopy!! HaHa

All kidding aside, I thought your letter was excellent and I certainly hope your doctor will get more feedback from others along the same line.

Love, Shirley
When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber"
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Post by Joefnh »

That's great news on the Entocort Ant and I'm sure that going back on Gluten would not be your first choice for a test...

Best wishes

--Joe
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Post by tex »

Ant,

Great letter - you presented the facts in a very diplomatic fashion - IMO, just the right balance of "possibly controversial information", and diplomacy. You obviously know how to work with people.

My thoughts on his response:

He obviously respects you, or he probably wouldn't have even responded, let alone with a nice congenial note.

I'm surprised that he recognized wheat as a possible problem, but not surprised that casein and soy and etc., are off his radar.
Improvement after stopping gluten does not necessarily equate to having Coeliac Disease.
True, but any other explanation is kind of shaky, since the only alternative with any real substance would be a wheat allergy, (and you didn't present with any classic allergy symptoms). Or, maybe he is actually acknowledging the possibility of non-celiac gluten sensitivity. :thumbsup: and kudos to him, if he is.
Osteoporosis is, unfortunately, quite common in otherwise healthy man.


Call me a skeptic, but I think he would be hard pressed to justify that claim. The condition may not be rare, but I suspect that it could hardly be called quite common. I would have to say that it is quite uncommon. How many non-celiac men do you know, who have diagnosable osteoporosis? I would venture to guess that the cohort of non-celiac men that he refers to, are simply prime examples of the failure of the system to properly diagnose celiac disease in certain individuals who are gluten-sensitive. There may be a few rare individuals who are an exception to that, due to a rare genetic condition, or radical dietary problems, but I believe that the majority would fall within the classification of men with misdiagnosed gluten-sensitivity, and that could hardly be considered to be a healthy condition.

I have to agree with him on the last point, as he is generally correct. Actually, whether or not stool floats, depends on it's density, which in turn depends on it's gas content, which is determined by the type of food eaten, the amount of air ingested while eating, and bacterial processes that occur during or after the process of digestion. While diets that lean toward the carnivore side may primarily tend to sink, with modern diets, and especially diets high in fiber, I'll bet more stools float than sink. But I could be wrong, of course. :shrug:

Good job,
Tex
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It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Post by ant »

Dear Shirely, Joe and Tex,

Thanks for your comments. You are right -- I am not going to do the Gluten challenge :???:

One thing I should have added. Since coming off Entocort I have noticed a stiffness/slight ache (I do not think it is "pain") in my fingers (just above the second joints) and in the last few days my knees. This is mainly in the mornings when I get up. One month into going off Entocort this is not reducing (in fact it might be very slightly increasing).

I am thinking (and this was suggested in another post) that this is due to leaky gut and/or my cortisol levels being out of balance as the Entocort is taken out of my system. How long would people expect for the system to settle down? Or is this the start of a new problem I wonder?

All the best, Ant
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Post by Gloria »

Ant,

It sounds like you didn't have this pain before you started Entocort. If you did and it went away while you were on Entocort, then I would suspect it is arthritis. I had the same experience with joint pain when I went off Entocort, but I also had the pain prior to being on it. Now that I'm back on it, the pain is gone again.

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Post by Joefnh »

Ant I would agree with Gloria that this might be an early indicator of arthritis. Your body has had the anti-inflammatory benefit of the Entocort for what was it about a year? Now that the steroid factor has been removed, you are seeing some of the signs of arthritis.

My guess would be as your own cortisol levels return to normal, hopefully the aches will vanish. I am not sure how long this would continue, but a basic hypothesis would be that it would take at least the length of time for the cortisol levels to return as they did to be suppressed.
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Post by tex »

Ant wrote:One thing I should have added. Since coming off Entocort I have noticed a stiffness/slight ache (I do not think it is "pain") in my fingers (just above the second joints) and in the last few days my knees. This is mainly in the mornings when I get up. One month into going off Entocort this is not reducing (in fact it might be very slightly increasing).
I have to agree with Gloria and Joe. That sounds like the symptoms of arthritis. Statins can also cause that symptom, but I'm not aware that you're taking a statin.

Tex
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It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Post by ant »

Dear Gloria, Joe and Tex,

Thanks for your responses. I was hoping that the diet had reduce these symptoms. I think I only started noticing them as I tapered down on the Entocort. I am assuming it is leaky gut that is stimulating this immune reaction to cause inflammation in my fingers and knees. I am still hopeful that with diet and continued healing of the gut I can control this. If it gets worse I see that the first medical treatment is NSAIDs (not good for MC) and then its corticosteroids (not good for osteoporosis) :shock:

All best, ant

P.S. I am not taking a statin
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Post by Polly »

Hi Ant!

Well done! :yourock: Someday we will make believers out of our docs, and you have made a great start. As Tex said, your doc has a beginning understanding at least. I would bet that his letter to you would have been different if it had been written a year ago. I do think you are educating him, slowly but surely.

My first opinion would be that your finger/knee pains could be related to Entocort withdrawal. Prednisone withdrawal after longterm use can be awful - I think there is a post here by Sally about her experience. Granted, Entocort is not absorbed to the extent that prednisone is, but you have been on it for quite a long time, and the pains coincided with its withdrawal. If I were you, I'd probably wait it out a bit longer if you aren't suffering too much. My 2nd hunch would be slightly leaky gut -especially with regard to gluten/dairy now that you are no longer on the Entocort. Did I read somewhere that you are going to try cheese again? For me, dairy is the major cause of arthritis-like symptoms. Have you resumed eating any dairy? That could be the problem.

One final thought - you aren't by any chance trying to give up caffeine, are you? Caffeine withdrawal can give arthritis symptoms. Once I went cold turkey and gave up coffee. I had horrible pains in my hips and other joints for days - kept me up at night.

To your continued health....... :drinking2:

Love,

Polly
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Post by ant »

Hi Polly,

Thanks so much for your feedback.
I'd probably wait it out a bit longer if you aren't suffering too much


I am ok so I will, as you suggest, wait a while. I just got back from (an excellent) dinner with some friends. The host has mild arthritis (also mid-fifties). He has been told that too much wine sets it off. If I have no luck in the next 4 weeks I will try a period of cutting back on the booze :sad: (I think wine helps me digest - but of course that could be post-rationalization for what I want to do anyway :cool: ).

I am not going off coffee and I do not intend to re-introduce cheese anytime soon, if ever. (I only mentioned that I might try to reintroduce cheese in the future to my GI doc to make him think I was not some crackpot diet "fundamentalist"). I am basically Paleo....although I do not think they had expresso or Shiraz in those caves :grin: .... so let's say I am "Paleoflexibarbarious"

I will informed of progress (or setbacks) over the next weeks.

Love, Ant
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Post by wonderwoman »

Great news Ant. Hope it continues to work for you. I look forward to the day when I can be off of Entocort completely.
Charlotte

The food you eat can be either the safest and most powerful form of medicine, or the slowest form of poison. Ann Wigmore
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Post by Polly »

Hi Ant,

Paleoflexibarbarious! What a hoot! :rofl: Don't know about the espresso, but I would guess that the caveman was exposed to fermented grapes. What do you think?

Just for fun, I googled "wine and arthritis" and it seemed about equally divided between articles that claimed that wine reduced joint inflammation, and those that claimed it made it worse! :roll:

BTW, the steroid withdrawal I referred to does not refer to problems with suppressed arenal (glucocorticoid) function. That should not be a problem if tapering was done properly. I am talking about an actual addictive withdrawal mechanism. You won't find much info about it. When Sally had the problem, it was very difficult to find info on it, but I remember that in one instance we found that NA (Narcotics Anonymous) was aware that steroid addiction is a real entity and had treated folks for it. Every time Sally tried to go below a certain dose of prednisone, she got excruciating joint pains - I think it was mainly in her feet. Again, I don't know if this is a problem with Entocort, but we have so little experience with longer-term Entocort usuage that I think we need to consider all possibilities. We are indeed pioneers in dealing with MC.

Love,

Polly
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Post by JoAnn »

:party:
Hooray Ant! So happy that you're 1 month off. I've been off 3 months and things are still good. I think it's a success for us all when someone finds their way through all this. May you have continued success, JoAnn
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Post by Gloria »

Three months, JoAnn! You are home free! Congratulations!

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