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Mornin'!
Here's a little more background on the teacher issue. The first vote on the contract to link salary to student achievement was 2 weeks ago, and the teachers turned it down. The school superintendent felt that the reason was because there had not been adequate time to get all of the pertinent info on the new contract out to all of the teachers. So he did a major blitz over those 2 weeks, which resulted in the the contract passing on the second vote.
The teachers seem really excited about the new contract. And the really good ones will be well-rewarded - it will be possible to advance up the salary scale more quickly, with the ultimate prize being at least $100,000 a year. FINALLY! It has always bugged me that teachers make so little for so much work and headaches, when they have such potential to positively influence the next generation. Especially when you look at the salaries of the pro athletes. Who are often NOT good role models....but I won't even go there. LOL!
Love,
Polly
P.S. Marliss, I have always been impressed by the home-schooled kiddies I see.
Are School Administrators Going Nuts, Or What?
Moderators: Rosie, Stanz, Jean, CAMary, moremuscle, JFR, Dee, xet, Peggy, Matthew, Gabes-Apg, grannyh, Gloria, Mars, starfire, Polly, Joefnh
I'll give my viewpoint based on my experience as a teacher.
I don't think it's a good idea to have cupcakes for every child's birthday, but I agree with Tex that suddenly having a gym exercise instead is too much of a change. It would be better to serve a healthy treat.
I was always amazed to see what the students ate for lunch. The majority had french fries or pizza and soda. The healthy offerings were shunned. Then they would eat ice cream for dessert.
I have mixed emotions about evaluating/rewarding teachers based upon performance reviews. I taught low-level classes and they can be the most difficult ones to teach. The students don't always retain what they've learned and the classes can have behavior problems due to the students' lack of success in school. Teaching honors classes is a piece of cake by comparison. This is the crux of the problem of doing evaluations based upon student performance. Few teachers would want to teach the low-level students.
Maryland is making progress in reform by financially rewarding high performing teachers, and it's impressive that the teachers approve of the move. The present system of giving everyone the same raise, based only upon experience and education doesn't give any incentive to improve, other than to get more education. I also think that there is little correlation between the amount of education a teacher has and how good of a teacher he/she is.
When I was the math department chairperson, I noticed that it was possible to change new teachers' methods their first year of teaching, but after that, their style and methods were set. Changing styles (and lesson plans and methods) is difficult and once a teacher thinks he/she has found the right formula, the teacher is reluctant to change. Dangling the carrot of extra money might be enough of an incentive, but I don't think a good teacher is motivated by money.
One measure that would improve teaching is to get rid of the union stronghold on education. It is next to impossible to get rid of a teacher that is a member of a union. Once teachers get tenure, they are practically guaranteed a job for the rest of their working life. I taught in a private high school which wasn't unionized, and they dismissed poor teachers regularly. Public schools are not able to do that.
This discussion implies that teachers are primarily responsible for student achievement. Any teacher knows that's not true. There are many factors which contribute to a student's learning. Parental involvement is very high on the list. The child also needs to be motivated internally, as well as externally. Home conditions play an important part, as well as the mental and physical well-being of the child. I once taught a girl mathematics the four years she was in high school. She was in the low-level math classes all four years. I heard that she went on to take calculus in college. She was highly motivated, came from a strong, supportive home, and had goals. So many things play a part in student achievement. The teacher is just one of them.
Gloria
I don't think it's a good idea to have cupcakes for every child's birthday, but I agree with Tex that suddenly having a gym exercise instead is too much of a change. It would be better to serve a healthy treat.
I was always amazed to see what the students ate for lunch. The majority had french fries or pizza and soda. The healthy offerings were shunned. Then they would eat ice cream for dessert.
I have mixed emotions about evaluating/rewarding teachers based upon performance reviews. I taught low-level classes and they can be the most difficult ones to teach. The students don't always retain what they've learned and the classes can have behavior problems due to the students' lack of success in school. Teaching honors classes is a piece of cake by comparison. This is the crux of the problem of doing evaluations based upon student performance. Few teachers would want to teach the low-level students.
Maryland is making progress in reform by financially rewarding high performing teachers, and it's impressive that the teachers approve of the move. The present system of giving everyone the same raise, based only upon experience and education doesn't give any incentive to improve, other than to get more education. I also think that there is little correlation between the amount of education a teacher has and how good of a teacher he/she is.
When I was the math department chairperson, I noticed that it was possible to change new teachers' methods their first year of teaching, but after that, their style and methods were set. Changing styles (and lesson plans and methods) is difficult and once a teacher thinks he/she has found the right formula, the teacher is reluctant to change. Dangling the carrot of extra money might be enough of an incentive, but I don't think a good teacher is motivated by money.
One measure that would improve teaching is to get rid of the union stronghold on education. It is next to impossible to get rid of a teacher that is a member of a union. Once teachers get tenure, they are practically guaranteed a job for the rest of their working life. I taught in a private high school which wasn't unionized, and they dismissed poor teachers regularly. Public schools are not able to do that.
This discussion implies that teachers are primarily responsible for student achievement. Any teacher knows that's not true. There are many factors which contribute to a student's learning. Parental involvement is very high on the list. The child also needs to be motivated internally, as well as externally. Home conditions play an important part, as well as the mental and physical well-being of the child. I once taught a girl mathematics the four years she was in high school. She was in the low-level math classes all four years. I heard that she went on to take calculus in college. She was highly motivated, came from a strong, supportive home, and had goals. So many things play a part in student achievement. The teacher is just one of them.
Gloria
You never know what you can do until you have to do it.
Gloria, I think you made a lot of excellent points. I really wish there was some way to address all the points you made at the same time.
The Union stanglehold would be a good place to start in my opinion. I don't think any organization should be able to force an employer to keep an employee who doesn't perform (or ceases to perform) at an acceptable level. If that were eliminated, perhaps the other issues would be easier to address.
I am not trying to insult teachers here. Thank God for them and especially for those who are truly motivated and even gifted in that area.
Love, Shirley
The Union stanglehold would be a good place to start in my opinion. I don't think any organization should be able to force an employer to keep an employee who doesn't perform (or ceases to perform) at an acceptable level. If that were eliminated, perhaps the other issues would be easier to address.
I am not trying to insult teachers here. Thank God for them and especially for those who are truly motivated and even gifted in that area.
Love, Shirley
When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber"
-- Winston Churchill
-- Winston Churchill
Good Morning!
I enjoyed reading your comments, Gloria. I have worked closely with schools for many years and share your observations. In my experience the single biggest impact on a child's ability to learn is poverty. Of course, there are exceptions, but in my state, achievement appears more related to poverty level than anything else. The highest performing schools in the state are in the wealthy subdivisions, and the lowest performing in the areas with greatest poverty. Almost without exception.
Interestingly, Baltimore City is one of the poorest subdivions in our state and the teachers ARE unionized. However, they (and their union) are in support of tying salary to student achievement.
A few further comments.............it will be only about 50% of salary that will be tied to achievement and this will not be put into place until the last 2 years of the contract. And it won't be based solely on student test scores (no teaching to the test!). Other factors like those you mentioned (for example, student ability level or the teacher's ability to motivate students) will be built in to the evaluation. The evaluation tools are not yet developed, but will be designed not just by state education administrators. Local level administrators and teachers will have ample input into the tool development. The union felt comfortable enough with the proposed plans to approve the contract even without knowing what the final evaluation document will look like. So I guess there is a lot of trust involved.
Love,
Polly
I enjoyed reading your comments, Gloria. I have worked closely with schools for many years and share your observations. In my experience the single biggest impact on a child's ability to learn is poverty. Of course, there are exceptions, but in my state, achievement appears more related to poverty level than anything else. The highest performing schools in the state are in the wealthy subdivisions, and the lowest performing in the areas with greatest poverty. Almost without exception.
Interestingly, Baltimore City is one of the poorest subdivions in our state and the teachers ARE unionized. However, they (and their union) are in support of tying salary to student achievement.
A few further comments.............it will be only about 50% of salary that will be tied to achievement and this will not be put into place until the last 2 years of the contract. And it won't be based solely on student test scores (no teaching to the test!). Other factors like those you mentioned (for example, student ability level or the teacher's ability to motivate students) will be built in to the evaluation. The evaluation tools are not yet developed, but will be designed not just by state education administrators. Local level administrators and teachers will have ample input into the tool development. The union felt comfortable enough with the proposed plans to approve the contract even without knowing what the final evaluation document will look like. So I guess there is a lot of trust involved.
Love,
Polly
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
Gloria, I was pleased to read your comments.
As a former teacher, I have been uncomfortable with the idea that teacher evaluations be tied too closely to student performance for the reasons that you mention. As much as it is politically correct to say that all students have the same potential, and if the teacher would just use the right methods to teach each child, they could all excel, that leaves out other factors, like student motivation, support at home, and a student's ability. (If any of my music teachers had been evaluated on my performance, they would all have lost their jobs--I have no musical ability at all, and pity the poor music teacher whose job might have depended on my carrying a tune!)
This isn't meant to excuse poor teachers, but just to say that they don't carry the full responsibility for a student's education. The student himself carries a lot of responsibility. Every teacher would love to have classes full of motivated honors students!
As a former teacher, I have been uncomfortable with the idea that teacher evaluations be tied too closely to student performance for the reasons that you mention. As much as it is politically correct to say that all students have the same potential, and if the teacher would just use the right methods to teach each child, they could all excel, that leaves out other factors, like student motivation, support at home, and a student's ability. (If any of my music teachers had been evaluated on my performance, they would all have lost their jobs--I have no musical ability at all, and pity the poor music teacher whose job might have depended on my carrying a tune!)
This isn't meant to excuse poor teachers, but just to say that they don't carry the full responsibility for a student's education. The student himself carries a lot of responsibility. Every teacher would love to have classes full of motivated honors students!
Martha
I certainly don't claim to have any teaching qualifications, (though I have done some teaching), but IMO, Gloria mentioned the "magic word" in her excellent post, (and I notice that the same word, or variations of it, keep coming up in the subsequent responses). That word is "motivation".
Motivation is the primary difference between honor students, and those at the bottom of the class. Nothing else, IMO, comes close to making the impact on education, that is made by student motivation. Teacher motivation is nice, and certainly it should be beneficial, but student motivation is where the rubber meets the road, in the race to better education. Motivated students will learn to excel, (to the limits of their abilities), regardless of poverty, the teaching effectiveness of their teachers, problems at home, learning disabilities, or whatever. And unmotivated students will consistently underperform, regardless of whether they are surrounded by excellence or inadequacy. Motivation is the only reliable means of instilling a true desire to learn, and without a desire to learn, we can throw all the money we want at the education system, but we will still turn out poorly-educated students.
However, expecting the students themselves to provide their own motivation is unrealistic. Instilling motivation into the mindset of students is, IMO, the single most important part of a teachers job. When students are motivated, a teacher's job is easy. When students are not motivated, a teacher's job borders on "Mission Impossible". Some students are naturally motivated to learn, but those who are not, not only are not motivated, but they don't even understand the concept, and are not likely to ever become motivated to learn, if the concept isn't infused into their brain, by someone. And if a student doesn't show up at school, already motivated to learn, thanks to their home environment, then by default, that someone has to be the teacher. The buck stops there.
Since one cannot teach what one does not understand, then it follows, that in order to teach motivation, a teacher absolutely must not only be motivated, but must also truly understand what it means to be motivated.
Incidentally, Gloria, I believe your comment about teachers not being likely to change their teaching program after the first year is right on target - it certainly applied to me. That's not to say that the proper motivation, (provided by financial incentive, or whatever), would not be sufficient to inspire change.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth.
Tex
Motivation is the primary difference between honor students, and those at the bottom of the class. Nothing else, IMO, comes close to making the impact on education, that is made by student motivation. Teacher motivation is nice, and certainly it should be beneficial, but student motivation is where the rubber meets the road, in the race to better education. Motivated students will learn to excel, (to the limits of their abilities), regardless of poverty, the teaching effectiveness of their teachers, problems at home, learning disabilities, or whatever. And unmotivated students will consistently underperform, regardless of whether they are surrounded by excellence or inadequacy. Motivation is the only reliable means of instilling a true desire to learn, and without a desire to learn, we can throw all the money we want at the education system, but we will still turn out poorly-educated students.
However, expecting the students themselves to provide their own motivation is unrealistic. Instilling motivation into the mindset of students is, IMO, the single most important part of a teachers job. When students are motivated, a teacher's job is easy. When students are not motivated, a teacher's job borders on "Mission Impossible". Some students are naturally motivated to learn, but those who are not, not only are not motivated, but they don't even understand the concept, and are not likely to ever become motivated to learn, if the concept isn't infused into their brain, by someone. And if a student doesn't show up at school, already motivated to learn, thanks to their home environment, then by default, that someone has to be the teacher. The buck stops there.
Since one cannot teach what one does not understand, then it follows, that in order to teach motivation, a teacher absolutely must not only be motivated, but must also truly understand what it means to be motivated.
Incidentally, Gloria, I believe your comment about teachers not being likely to change their teaching program after the first year is right on target - it certainly applied to me. That's not to say that the proper motivation, (provided by financial incentive, or whatever), would not be sufficient to inspire change.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Joefnh
- Rockhopper Penguin
- Posts: 2478
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:25 pm
- Location: Southern New Hampshire
While I do not have any formal training as a teacher, I have been teaching an after school class in robotics and engineering principles at the local high school for the past 7 years. The program I work with is based on the F.I.R.S.T program (For the Inspiration of Science and Technology) Over that time I have worked with both good and bad teachers and students alike.
I have always tried to integrate my syllabus with both the math and science teachers to reinforce their lessons. In that time I had noticed that there are teachers who are truly concerned with their students, and then there were those that just seemed to be defeated by the whole process of life and just did not care. It always made me sad to see that attitude, and was often kiddingly warned that I would be like them soon ... It seems that some just dealt with the low pay and recognition better than others. The sad part is that these teachers are paid so miserably and put in such a tremendous effort in both time and educational and personal costs.
On the other side of the coin, there were great students from all backgrounds in life, some from privileged homes and many from less than ideal circumstances. I always struggled to figure out what circumstances made a good student and what factors influenced this. Certainly the students that came from a background rooted in poverty had many more obstacles to overcome at such an early stage in life. Many of these great kids came from backgrounds that just broke your heart. They were just trying to work their way to a better existence, these students always found a special place in my heart. For some reason the system just does not recognize this, adding one more hurdle to overcome in life.
I do hope that educational reform can be a real and tangible element in our society. Our future is with these kids.
--Joe
I have always tried to integrate my syllabus with both the math and science teachers to reinforce their lessons. In that time I had noticed that there are teachers who are truly concerned with their students, and then there were those that just seemed to be defeated by the whole process of life and just did not care. It always made me sad to see that attitude, and was often kiddingly warned that I would be like them soon ... It seems that some just dealt with the low pay and recognition better than others. The sad part is that these teachers are paid so miserably and put in such a tremendous effort in both time and educational and personal costs.
On the other side of the coin, there were great students from all backgrounds in life, some from privileged homes and many from less than ideal circumstances. I always struggled to figure out what circumstances made a good student and what factors influenced this. Certainly the students that came from a background rooted in poverty had many more obstacles to overcome at such an early stage in life. Many of these great kids came from backgrounds that just broke your heart. They were just trying to work their way to a better existence, these students always found a special place in my heart. For some reason the system just does not recognize this, adding one more hurdle to overcome in life.
I do hope that educational reform can be a real and tangible element in our society. Our future is with these kids.
--Joe
Joe
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MBombardier
- Rockhopper Penguin
- Posts: 1523
- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:44 am
- Location: Vancouver, WA
So cool, Joe! This is my third year as part of Science Olympiad. Our homeschooled middle school team has been in existence for seven years and has gone to nationals every year, coming in second in the nation in 2009. There is some cross-over in the WA-OR area between SO and FIRST.
I, too, appreciated your words, Gloria, even though my only teaching experience has been my own children, other homeschooled children in a co-op situation, and teaching computer stuff to a few employees when I was working. And Tex, you boiled it down to the essential--motivation. Motivation on the teacher's part--there are some truly gifted teachers out there, and others who can and will be motivated by other things, and motivation on the students' part.
I can say from my own experience that a severe lack of motivation on a student's part cannot be overcome. My oldest was tested for the gifted program when she was in early elementary, and failed. The counselor was a friend of mine and told me she was quite capable, but just didn't care. After we began homeschooling her, it was extremely difficult. Finally, in her 30's, she has discovered what motivates her.
The two middle ones are a teacher's dream. My son graduated this spring magna cum laude from the top civilian aeronautics university in the world. Even in this economy, he had five job offers. He is mathematically-gifted, and when we hit my ceiling of incompetence in math early on, he taught himself. My 15yo is the same way. Homeschooling her basically consists of making sure she doesn't let anything fall through the cracks. Not working on biology because she is eye-deep in worldview, for example. Achievement comes easily for her, just like my son.
My 12yo is artistically-talented, and a gifted writer. Surprisingly, she is mathematically-gifted like the middle two. But we will both heave a sigh of relief when she makes it through high school. She is a sweet girl who struggles with distractibility, and her motivation to do the nitty-gritty of school work (except math) is just not there.
With the diversity in just this one family, I have been excited to see the movement over the years to magnet schools, I think they are called, where students can focus more on what they are really interested in. I have also been excited to see the realization of the different learning styles of students, and the training of teachers to help them adapt their teaching to the different learning styles so that the students can catch fire. And programs like FIRST and SO are inspiring students once again in the areas of science and technology.
Like Joe said, educational reform that works is a necessity. Our future as a nation depends on it.
I, too, appreciated your words, Gloria, even though my only teaching experience has been my own children, other homeschooled children in a co-op situation, and teaching computer stuff to a few employees when I was working. And Tex, you boiled it down to the essential--motivation. Motivation on the teacher's part--there are some truly gifted teachers out there, and others who can and will be motivated by other things, and motivation on the students' part.
I can say from my own experience that a severe lack of motivation on a student's part cannot be overcome. My oldest was tested for the gifted program when she was in early elementary, and failed. The counselor was a friend of mine and told me she was quite capable, but just didn't care. After we began homeschooling her, it was extremely difficult. Finally, in her 30's, she has discovered what motivates her.
The two middle ones are a teacher's dream. My son graduated this spring magna cum laude from the top civilian aeronautics university in the world. Even in this economy, he had five job offers. He is mathematically-gifted, and when we hit my ceiling of incompetence in math early on, he taught himself. My 15yo is the same way. Homeschooling her basically consists of making sure she doesn't let anything fall through the cracks. Not working on biology because she is eye-deep in worldview, for example. Achievement comes easily for her, just like my son.
My 12yo is artistically-talented, and a gifted writer. Surprisingly, she is mathematically-gifted like the middle two. But we will both heave a sigh of relief when she makes it through high school. She is a sweet girl who struggles with distractibility, and her motivation to do the nitty-gritty of school work (except math) is just not there.
With the diversity in just this one family, I have been excited to see the movement over the years to magnet schools, I think they are called, where students can focus more on what they are really interested in. I have also been excited to see the realization of the different learning styles of students, and the training of teachers to help them adapt their teaching to the different learning styles so that the students can catch fire. And programs like FIRST and SO are inspiring students once again in the areas of science and technology.
Like Joe said, educational reform that works is a necessity. Our future as a nation depends on it.
Marliss Bombardier
Dum spiro, spero -- While I breathe, I hope
Psoriasis - the dark ages
Hashimoto's Thyroiditis - Dec 2001
Collagenous Colitis - Sept 2010
Granuloma Annulare - June 2011
Dum spiro, spero -- While I breathe, I hope
Psoriasis - the dark ages
Hashimoto's Thyroiditis - Dec 2001
Collagenous Colitis - Sept 2010
Granuloma Annulare - June 2011
Polly,
Hurray!!! Good for Baltimore. Let the results dictate who gets to educate our children, and who does not.
Polly, I am also proud to report that I am a subject of the Maryland public school system. Recall I grew up in Rockville. And to be frank, when I moved to Indiana before high school, I spun my wheels for a year waiting for their system to catch up with what Maryland taught me. And I am not gifted by any means.
Rich
Hurray!!! Good for Baltimore. Let the results dictate who gets to educate our children, and who does not.
Polly, I am also proud to report that I am a subject of the Maryland public school system. Recall I grew up in Rockville. And to be frank, when I moved to Indiana before high school, I spun my wheels for a year waiting for their system to catch up with what Maryland taught me. And I am not gifted by any means.
Rich
"It's not what I believe. It's what I can prove." - A Few Good Men