Overactive Immune Systems Do Not Cause AI Disease - Part II

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tex
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Overactive Immune Systems Do Not Cause AI Disease - Part II

Post by tex »

Hi All,

Thanks to Linda, for inspiring me to think about this topic a bit more, so that I can offer a much better argument against an overactive immune system, as a potential cause of MC. Of course, the arguments that I offered in my previous posts about this topic, still stand, also. Bear in mind that this is strictly my opinion, and it is not chiseled in stone.

Anyway, the point is, when you think about it a bit, it's pretty obvious that we, (and the medical community), have been missing the point here. We all know that MC, (and the other IBDs), are basically T-cell reactions, (at least this is how they begin). For some arbitrary, (and probably incorrect), reason, we've just assumed that IBDs, (and in fact, all autoimmune diseases), are a result of an overactive immune system, that produces too many T-cells, (natural killer T-cells). Why would we assume that, when the problem could just as easily be an underactive, (or compromised), immune system, that produces too few regulatory T-cells, (suppressor T-cells)? Of course, part of the problem may be that natural killer T-cells are old knowledge, whereas regulatory T-cells are relatively new knowledge, and mainstream medical thinking is usually very resistant to change, when it comes to long-term established principles.

Consider the current thinking regarding the mechanism by which it is thought that LDN works for treating MS:
Contrary to the common belief that MS is due to over-activity of the immune system, MS actually occurs due to a reduction in immune system activity. Specifically, it is the reduction in number of the suppressor T-cells within the immune system that permits the damaging CD4, helper T-cells to do their harm. Thus, during an acute relapse, the overall number of T-cells is reduced, the normal balance of helper T-cells and suppressor T-cells is disrupted and the CD-4, helper, T-cells tend to predominate. This is the situation most pronounced during an acute relapse but a similar situation occurs, perhaps to a lesser extent, in chronic progressive MS.

Under the influence of LDN it has been demonstrated that the numbers of T-cells may increase by more than 300%. Thus, when the number of T-cells is initially increased, the overall predominance of CD4, helper T-cells, at this time, will expectedly increase the intensity of the MS, therefore temporarily increasing some symptoms.

As the number of T-cells continues to increase, the normal balance of suppressor to helper T-cells is restored, the activity and intensity of the disease process is reduced, and symptoms once again diminish and improve.
http://www.msrc.co.uk/index.cfm/fuseact ... pageid/651

Well, if "renegade" LDN researchers are aware of this, why isn't it even on the radar of mainstream medicine? Why does the establishment blindly continue to accept obsolete assumptions as fact, even when they obviously contradict real world events? Surely, in this day and age, most researchers dealing with issues that relate to the immune system, are well aware of the role that regulatory T-cells play in so-called autoimmune diseases, (at least they should be).

For those unfamiliar with this aspect of the immune system, regulatory T-cells (sometimes known as suppressor T-cells). are a specialized form of T-cells that act to suppress activation of the immune system, and thereby maintain immune system homeostasis and tolerance to self-antigens. For many years, there was a lot of controversy among immunologtists, over whether a dedicated population of suppressor T-cells even existed. Recent advances in the understanding of the characteristics of these cells, however, have firmly established their existence, and their critical role in the performance of our immune system. In fact, experiments with mice have demonstrated that the immunosuppressive potential of these cells can be harnessed therapeutically, to treat autoimmune diseases, and to facilitate the transplantation of tolerance, or to specifically eliminate tolerance, so that regulatory T-cells might be used to protect against cancer.

Obviously, in order to function properly, the immune system must discriminate between self and non-self, because when self/non-self discrimination fails, the immune system destroys cells and tissues of the body, and as a result, causes what is known as autoimmune disease. Regulatory T cells actively suppress activation of the immune system and prevent reactions against self, IOW, autoimmune disease.

Everyone here, who has MC, saw their disease develop either during, or immediately following a period of events that are well known to suppress the effectiveness of the immune system. We are all familiar with those "events", because they are frequently listed in the literature about MC, as "causes of MC", or "events leading up to the development of MC". Whatever they are called, they all have one thing in common - they all cause the immune system to be either suppressed, or compromised, or both.

So I'll say it again - I don't believe that MC is caused by an overactive immune system, (and I know that I'm not the only one here who feels that way). I believe that it is caused by an underactive, (compromised), immune system, that probably doesn't produce enough suppressor T-cells. Just because it's possible to treat the disease by suppressing the immune system, does not prove that the immune system is overactive, (that assumption is where many "experts" go wrong), it simply means that part of it is still working, and part of it is compromised. I assume that most immune system experts know all this, but for some reason or other, they still cling to the incorrect assumption that an overactive immune system is the problem. Clearly, it is not.

Tex
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It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Post by Joefnh »

Interesting premise Tex... In your first round on this you did have me thinking of the relationship between IBD's and the immune system. I would wonder if as part of this hypothesis that the immune system is 'fatigued' from a period of over activity. As part of this, could the immune system be acting in a unproductive way. Not hyperactive but 'confused', just thinking out loud so to speak.

I think we can say that for IBDs such as Crohns and UC that it has been demonstrated that an overactive immune system is responsible for the worsening of symptoms. This is why for many cases of those IBDs that immune suppression meds work so well. This has been shown conclusively with the use of the pill camera and biopsies which showed a significant improvement after 6 months of use.

I would ask further if MC was caused a hypo-active immune system, wouldn't Imuran make mine or others MC symptoms worse not better?

This is a good thread Tex, it will be interesting to see what we sort out here.

--Joe
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Post by hoosier1 »

Tex,

According to my GI doc today, who looked at all my blood chemistries, Enterolab results, etc., he feels I have a moderately under-active immune system. Which is why he wants to avoid prednisone with me, etc.

Rich
"It's not what I believe. It's what I can prove." - A Few Good Men
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Post by tex »

Joe wrote:I would ask further if MC was caused a hypo-active immune system, wouldn't Imuran make mine or others MC symptoms worse not better?
No, definitely not, because immune system suppressants attenuate the entire immune response, (not selective parts of it). The problem, (as I stated in my post above, is that parts of the immune system response are compromised, while others continue to work normally, (and the lack of regulation, leads to the build up of excess numbers of killer T-cells. Again, that happens because the regulatory T-cells are not being produced in adequate numbers. As I said:
Just because it's possible to treat the disease by suppressing the immune system, does not prove that the immune system is overactive, (that assumption is where many "experts" go wrong), it simply means that part of it is still working, and part of it is compromised.
For more detail, consider this part of my response in the FecaL Transplantation thread:
IOW, if the intestinal microbial profile/balance is altered to a sufficient degree, from it's original state, then it can be said that it no longer constitutes "self", so it no longer retains immunity from immune system attacks.

Of course, proponents of the overactive immune system theory might argue that the body should accept/tolerate/recognize any form of non-hostile microbiota as "self", but obviously, there's no logical reason why that should be true.



Rich,

I believe your GI doc is right.

Tex
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It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Post by Joefnh »

Tex I have been thinking of this post this week and have an interesting observation.

Historically for at least the past 10 years, I knew I was about to get sick because I would have a day or so of feeling great. What I meant by this i that I have for quite a while just not felt well, with the symptoms including achy muscles fatigue, brain fog. In the 3-5 days prior to becoming symptomatic with the cold or flu symptoms, I would feel incredible.

My interpretation of this is that my confused immune system would actually have something to deal with in fighting off the virus and was no longer attacking itself thus relieving the constant aches pains etc..

Could this be the dis-regulated or confused immune system at work?

--Joe
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Post by tex »

Hmmmmmmmm. Interesting observation. You're very perceptive. I never noticed that, because my symptoms were cyclic, and alternated between D and C, and at the end of the cycle, I always had at least several days to a week or so, of days that started as decent, and steadily improved to great, before the next cycle began with nausea, D, aches and pains, etc., so even if I had noticed a calming effect before the start of a virus, I probably would have just attributed it to the cycle of symptoms.

I would say that you may well be right with that observation - at least it makes sense to me, and it certainly fits my theory of how the immune system reacts when faced with a hierarchy of simultaneous multiple demands on it's "services".

Great observation. I'll have to cogitate on that a while. :grin:

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Tex
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It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Post by Joefnh »

Tex I should note that during those years D was was not a problem, but I could always tell when I was about to experience the symptoms of a cold or flu... It was like a early warning system... I know strange. My doctor thought I was crazy when I told him, but it was nearly 100 % accurate.

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Post by tex »

Obviously there must be some substance to it, if it was that noticeable. Thinking about it, the absence of D probably made the pattern easier to notice, because when we have constant D, we tend to focus on the D, and we're not as likely to be so observant about the other symptoms.

Tex
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It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
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Post by Gabes-Apg »

Post diagnosis and based on what i have learnt from being part of this family, i realise my body has a similar type of warning system. the sharp stabbing pains that turn into pain and cramping with too much movement are my warning system, to be pain free i have to rest.

Many years ago i used to take nurofen for the pain and keep going and thinking about some of those instances there were quite a few that i did get colds or flu or chest infections.
Nowadays i dont try to push through, i listen to my body and rest.
Gabes Ryan

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