How long does it take you to 'react' to an intolerant food?

[kimpatt]

I know we're all different, and I'm curious to hear what your 'lag time' usually is between when you ate the offending food and when it began causing GI distress.

I woke this morning, and I had one good, firm BM at 6 am. Ten minutes later, I had a much softer 'disintegrating' one. Later in the morning, I had another like that.

I noticed this incident because I've been having almost NO diarrhea for quite some time (gas, pain, other symptoms), but no D. I don't think I ate anything that's an obvious trigger... Lunch the day before was in a restaurant, but I specified to the cook what I could eat. Today, I called back, and he confirmed that my sauce had only garlic (fresh), chicken broth (homemade, with no additives), and salt. Chicken, rice, mushrooms & carrots were the remainder. My dinner was a pasta dish I've made prior and had no problems with. Dessert was brownies from Namaste mix. The ingredients in them are ones I'm usually fine with. I would suspect the eggs, except that I've been watching my response to eggs, and they seem ok...??

[Gloria]

That's a difficult question to answer because each of us has our own timetable for digestion of foods. Sometimes I will have a pretty immediate reaction, meaning I've eaten a major intolerance. Other times, and more commonly, I will have a delayed reaction, such as you describe.

I find that my BM will start out normal in the morning because my colon has had time to extract the fluid from it. When the BM deteriorates as I finish, it usually means I ate something offensive later in the day before. My transit time isn't always 24 hours in that case. Tex has said that it takes longer than 24 hours for his reaction to gluten to manifest itself.

I'd be pretty suspicious of the chicken broth. It may have had flour in it to thicken it. When I ate at an Italian restaurant the other day, I was amazed to hear the cook say that most of the tomato sauces contained flour as a thickener. You also list celery as a problem and many broths are made with celery.

Gloria

[tex]

My reaction time for various intolerances has always been different, depending on the food. My fastest reactions are to oats, which seems strange, since the prolamin protein in oats, (avenin), is fairly weak, compared with the gluten in wheat, (IOW, it's a much smaller percentage of the total protein, and there is much less protein in oats, than there is in wheat). Oats cause me to have gut-clearing D, (IOW, it cleans me out in a hurry), starting about 3 to 5 hours after I eat the oats. It seams that when I was eating oats regularly, I reacted in 4 to 5 hours, but if I avoided oats for a week or so, I reacted much faster, in 3 hours. After a few hours of D, I wouldn't have another BM for 2 or 3 days, so it gave my gut a pretty thorough purging. Also, when the reaction began, it wouldn't start with a formed BM, and then turn into D. It would always begin with liquid D. To my way of thinking, that's a perfect example of a classic MC reaction - when it begins, it means business, right off the bat.

http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewt ... +challenge

Gloria, what about the carrots? You, or someone else, mentioned a few days ago that they are high in something, but I've forgotten what it was.

Also, I'll bet that the reason why your reactions start off in low gear, and then shift up, (rather than starting off in overdrive, ), is because it has to overcome the Entocort, before it can get going. Or, maybe that's just another example of the old "we're all different" rule.

Tex

[kscolorado]

My fastest reactions are with soy, usually within a couple of hours, and I also know its soy because I get a pimple around my mouth. Gluten usually is delayed 12 to 20 hours. I always get the big D with gluten but with soy just bloating, cramping, and gas. Such lovely stuff

[Gloria]

Tex,

I forgot about the carrots because most people can eat them. Carrots are on the low fructose diet as a questionable food.

I tested yams (as opposed to sweet potatoes) last night for dinner. No Norman this morning, but I also discovered yesterday that my sunflower butter cookies were green in the middle! They had gone moldy after just a week. They were delicious, but I'll be keeping them in the refrigerator or freezer from now on. I had already eaten a bite before I noticed.

I'll test the yams again tonight. They're in a different family than sweet potatoes, so I'm hoping they'll be OK, but I'm not holding my breath.

Gloria

[Tessa]

My reaction time for different intolerances also depends on the food though I use to have it pretty fast.

Fruits: almost when eating them.
I have a reaction in two phases... The second one some hours later.

Gluten and dairy: starting with a light headache... feeling unwell, nausea,...And then I can have nausea and vomits, diarrhea, abdominal pain...

Love,
Tessa

[Bifcus16]

Dairy normally causes me to react a day and a half after I eat it. So a problem Thursday morning will be caused by eating the wrong thing on Tuesday evening.

Lately it hasn't been having any effect...

Lyn

[kimpatt]

Ok, gotta ask...What is NORMAN?? Constipation, diarrhea, ?? I've tried to figure it out by context, but I give!

I sure wish I knew what was causing my issues...Diarrhea Tuesday morning...just a bit of icky feeling Tuesday (could overlook it for the most part). Gas/bloating starting Tuesday pm and lasting until now (Wed. pm). And, now gas seems to be worsening. Today has been hot rice cereal with hempmilk for breakfast; coffee with hempmilk. Tuna sandwich on homemade GF, DF, SF, CF bread with potato chips & salsa; apple muffin (homemade--GF, SF, DF, CF) & homemade chicken soup (no allergens).

I feel like I'm still reacting to the 'original trigger' whatever it was, but my symptoms seem to be worsening (gut gurgling, increasing pressure/gas; today I had burping, belching, a bit of nausea--like my symptoms are transitioning into that EE/EG complex). With my reaction on Tuesday morning, I figure my trigger probably occurred sometime Monday?? I'd think it would be all cleared out now, but it seems to be worsening.

[Gloria]

A perfect Norman to me is a solid, smooth, formed BM that doesn't disintegrate or make the water cloudy when I flush. I consider anything less than this as a reaction. The next step down is a solid BM that is formed, but leaves the water cloudy when I flush. Basically, each deterioration is a more watery BM, meaning that my colon isn't extracting as much fluid as it should be.

Listing what you've eaten will always bring a variety of responses from the board because we all have different experiences. For example, I think I've reacted to Hempmilk. Almost all tuna has soy in it, unless you buy the premium brand with nothing added (vegetable broth has soy). Apples are a known irritant to the intestines. Some flours can be problematic: sorghum, and millet, for example. I've stopped using buckwheat flour for the time being. We recently had a member discover that rice was causing her D.

It sure would be nice if there were a cause and effect list, but we're all different. I think that the genetic testing will eventually help to solve the puzzle. In the meantime, we have to experiment and see what works. When I have a reaction, I go back to cream of rice cereal, no fruit or fruit juice, meat, potatoes and a safe vegetable. I'm having less than perfect BMs because I'm testing what fruit is acceptable. I probably should just give them all up until I'm completely healed, but I keep hoping there are some that I can eat.

Gloria

[Bifcus16]

Don't forget it is also possible to get the good old fashioned tummy bug. Dear hubby has had the runs for days - probably a dodgy salad.

When I was first recovering, I always felt that one swallow of dairy would give me the poops for three days - starting a day and a half after I ate it. It was like it took a few days for the gut to settle down again.

Lyn

[tex]

Kimberley,

The explanation of the origins of the word "Norman", and many other board colloquialisms, abbreviations, etc., can be found here:

http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=845

This may not apply to you, but like Gloria, I tend to react to Vanilla Hempmilk. The Original flavor seems to work better, but it still isn't completely trouble-free, for me. In my case, I just get some bloating from it. Others here have reported a similar problem.

Do you have any occasional problems with gastroparesis, (slow emptying of the stomach, or even total failure to empty, for an unnaturally long period of time)? I often had the problem, and it caused nausea and vomiting for me. Sometimes it would last for quite a long time, (like a day, or more), and I would have to just stop eating, then suddenly it would empty out, and I could resume eating, again. It happened to me many times, before I healed from the gluten damage. I have also had it happen to me while I was having a major allergic reaction to oak pollen, and I seem to recall that this was during the time that I was doing the oat challenge, so mast cell involvement certainly looks suspicious. Prior to this, I don't believe that I ever noticed any reaction to oak pollen, but now I react to it every year. This was the first time that I had eaten any oats, since developing the symptoms of gluten sensitivity, so I probably developed the antibodies to avenin, for the first time, during that challenge. So now I wonder if that oat challenge played a part in triggering an oak pollen allergy.

The reason why we seem to be more sensitive, (it takes less of an allergen exposure to trigger a reaction), and symptoms sometimes seem to be more severe, as we fine tune our diet, is because we actually are more sensitive, due to a subtle characteristic of the immune system. What follows may not be a precise scientific description, but it's what I believe happens.

As I see it, when we are ingesting an allergen routinely, antibodies in the body reach a point of equilibrium - IOW, a steady-state condition. If we withdraw the allergen from our diet, then the level of antibodies circulating in the blood, and various other places, such as the lumen, (the interior of the intestines), will slowly decline, and if the level declines sufficiently, (to below our personal threshold for a reaction), then the reaction will stop. The level never goes to zero, however, because once sensitized to an allergen, the immune system is constantly on the lookout for a repeat "invasion". I say "never goes to zero", but after the passage of many years, the level may be so low that it is insufficient to trigger a response in a normal amount of time, and the system may need to "relearn" a few things about it.

Anyway, my point is, once the state of the immune system is back down to "alert" level, (rather than full battle status), the reintroduction of that allergen will trigger a rapid, all-out "call to arms", and the resulting immune response will be so great, that some of the body's normal processes will be suddenly disrupted, due to all the B-cells, T-cells, possibly mast cells, etc., that are quickly generated and circulated throughout the body. IOW, the body has to suddenly adjust to a massive immune system response, which means relatively sudden major changes in body chemistry.

Also, the immune system seems to have evolved to focus primarily on a single problem at any given time, (whatever it perceives as the primary threat). This is why parasitic worms, for example, can divert the immune system, and stop an IBD reaction. If the immune system is continuously reacting to gluten, then it may tend to pretty much ignore other, less significant allergens, in order to concentrate it's efforts on the major threat. If the gluten threat is removed from the diet, then it will concentrate on the next most significant threat, such as casein, or soy, or whatever. As long as two or more allergens are in the diet, it will tend to concentrate on the major perceived threat. Once all triggers are removed from the diet, and the antibodies have time to die down, then the immune system will be in standby mode, with guards posted all around, keeping an eye out for any of the allergens that it perceives to be enemies. When any one of them appears, then an immediate attack is launched, and the immune system throws everything it has, into the battle against that particular "invader".

So this is what confuses so many people with multiple intolerances. If, for example you are intolerant of soy, but you are also intolerant of gluten, (a higher order allergen), and you have been reacting to gluten for some time, then your immune system is not going to pay any attention to soy, because it already has it's hands full with the gluten. Furthermore, as long as gluten is eaten regularly, since it is such a potent allergen, (remember that gluten antibodies can be detected in stool samples up to 2 years after the GF diet is adopted), then gluten antibodies will remain very high in the blood, (and the intestines, obviously), even if no gluten is ingested for a day or two, possibly longer, for some people. That means that if we don't avoid gluten for a long enough period of time, to allow the antibody level to significantly decline, then we probably won't even notice that we are reacting to gluten, as long as we eat at least a trace amount of it, every few days. If we avoid it for a long enough period of time, then Whoa! it will knock our hat in the creek, if we take a bite of it. IOW, a rapid rise in the antibody level, will generate a more potent reaction, because it's a change of status, and that will make it much easier to pinpoint the source of the problem.

All the other antibodies die down much faster, after the offending food is withdrawn from the diet, so those allergens are much easier to track down. Gluten is deceptive, because if you are eating it regularly, it's virtually impossible to detect that you are reacting to it. Everything else seems to be making you sick, because your reactions will be either constant, or random.

At least that's how I see it.

Tex

[ant]

Tex, what a brilliant explanation !

best, ant

[kimpatt]

Thanks for the description, Gloria, and for your helpful words. I'm carefully testing flours too, but I'll put that on hold for a bit now.

That makes perfect sense, Tex. Thanks so much for detailing the complexities of our immune/GI symptoms. Great explanation. YES. I do have problems with gastroparesis. After my D (even if its only once), I will usually have days of what feels like constipation, but it could be gastroparesis causing it. During that time, the gas skyrockets for me. This time, in particular, the connection between lower GI symptoms (D; then C) and upper GI symptoms was very clear. I am feeling like the EG diagnosis may not be accurate (more like MC complications), but the EE symptoms (in my throat & mouth)

In looking closely at my diet & thinking about my body, I realized that I likely ovulated over the weekend. My menstrual cycle seems to play a large part in my GI symptoms. The first 2 weeks of my cycle are usually significantly better than the 2 weeks between ovulation and menses. I'd forgotten this 'wrinkle' since having the baby and being without periods for so long.

I think I will try to hold my diet steady until after my period is over to see if my theory holds. After that point, if my symptoms don't resolve, I'll take eggs out and see how I do.

The saga continues

[tex]

I think you're right. Hormones are a major factor with MC, and possibly with all autoimmune diseases. Your observations and insight may help to shed some light on this issue.

Tex

[Lucy]

Hi there,

My protein reactions are 24 hours from the time of ingestion of the food I'm sensitive to.

Before I knew I couldn't have any dairy because of the casein protein, I would have a lactose reacion (unable to make enough of the enzyme that digests it due to damage to the gut lining) in a couple of hours, so I would get two reactions at two different times then from dairy.

Before removing all dairy, when I was only gf, I switched to the lactose free milk, and that only cut out the two hour reaction from the lactose ingestion.

There are apparently a no. of factors that can influence one's transit time through the gut, and age is one of them, but we're all individual on this one.

What made my 24 hour reaction time rather convenient when I discovered what it was was that I could look at a label or remember what I'd eaten different from the same time (meal) the day before, and pretty much know where the culpret was after a while.

One thing I'd like to mention here that would happen, however, was that if I didn't eat a significant enough amount (like a meal) until, say, 30 minutes to an hour later the next day, I wouldn't get the 24 hour reaction until after I'd eat a significant quantity of food to trigger a B.M. Food goes through the gut because of peristalsis, so guess eating itself was the stimulus for the actual stools, regardless of what kind they were, and are, for that matter -- diarrhea, normal, or in between. By the way, all mine are normal nowadays, thankfully, because I don't knowingly ingest any of the known triggers.

I just wish we could figure out how to help those who don't experience complete recovery, but hopefully, at least the reduction in symptoms is making life more liveable for these.

Yours, Luce