Is the GF diet reducing our good GI bacteria??

[Zizzle]

If this article is true, could the GF diet be making some of us worse due to alterations in gut flora?
Are there GF sources of Polysaccharides?

http://www.celiac.com/articles/22313/1/ ... Page1.html

[tex]

Anytime you change your diet, you are going to change your gut bacteria population balance. That's just how it works.

Are there GF sources of Polysaccharides?

Sure. They're called Fructooligosaccharides, (FOS). Unfortunately, despite all the "expert" advice that we "need to" add this to our diets, so far, every member who has tried following that advice, (to the best of my knowledge), has had an adverse reaction to it. If it's so great, how come it makes us sick?

I'll tell you why it makes us sick - because FOS promotes the propagation of "bad" bacteria just as well or better than it promotes the propagation of "good" bacteria. All things being equal, "bad" bacteria are more competitive than "good" bacteria, in general, so feeding gut bacteria, further promotes an imbalance toward the "bad" side - it's counterproductive. In a nutshell, that's why prebiotics simply don't work. They might work for someone who does not have a bacterial imbalance in the first place, but why would anyone take them if their gut is working fine to begin with?

Also, if the intestinal bacteria population changes caused by a GF diet are so bad for us, why do we feel so good on the GF diet, and so bad, off it?

This type of research is a prime example of a little education being a bad thing. Those guys don't understand how gut bacteria work, (no one does), so they shouldn't be messing with them, and they certainly shouldn't be offering advice to others, about altering their gut flora and fauna.

My response to the "discovery" of population changes in gut bacteria, because of diet changes, as described in that article, is, "so what?" IOW, those changes are irrelevant. They're normal, and expected. One month is not sufficient time for the gut bacteria balance to reach homeostasis, in response to a diet change. The researchers determined the gut population balance one month after the subjects initiated a GF diet. A month provides enough time for the "good" bacteria that relied on wheat for their nutrition to die off, (and be replaced by "bad" bacteria), but it does not provide enough time for the overall population to reach homeostasis. That's probably one of the reasons why it takes 6 months or more for the GF diet to work for most people. It very likely takes 6 months to a year, (for most of us), for altered gut bacteria populations to reach a new state of homeostasis.

My guess is, if you track down the source of funding for that research project, you'll find that it was paid for by a company selling FOS, or some other prebiotic. Also, unlike this site, Celiac.com is not ad-free - they're in business to make a profit.

Tex

[Zizzle]

Hmmm...I'm one of those people who believes I probably have some bad bacteria (or unfavorable good vs. bad balance) lurking in my GI tract and contributing to (or causing) my MC and food intolerances. I always feel better on antibiotics. I've honestly been debating whether I should ask my doctor for a few days of Cipro to kill everything off. Then I would overdose on all types of probiotics for a week or two, then take a maintenance dose.

Or maybe I would try periodic antibiotic dosing like the Dr. Brown protocol for RA?

Is that just crazy talk? Has anyone here tried it?

[tex]

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger - we're all in the same boat. Unfortunately, though, it's not that simple. If you kill all your bacteria, you will indeed have to start over. The problem is, commercial probiotic bacteria cannot establish a permanent colony in your gut - they will die off. Before you try that, please read this:

In a normal situation free from antiseptics, antibiotics, high-carbohydrate diets, bottle feeding, hormones and other such accoutrements of modern western life, the gut flora is safe. Babies start life in mother's womb with a sterile gut. During the process of birth, they become inoculated with bacteria from the birth canal and perineum. These bacteria are largely bacteroides which cannot survive for more than a few minutes outside the human gut. This inoculation is enhanced through breast-feeding because the first milk, namely colostrum, is highly desirable substrate for these bacteria to flourish. We now know that this is an essential part of immune programming. Indeed 90% of the immune system is gut associated. These essential probiotics programme the immune system so that they accept them and learn what is beneficial. A healthy gut flora therefore is highly protective against invasion of the gut by other strains of bacteria or viruses.

The problem is there is no probiotic on the market that supplies bacteroides for the above reasons. If we eat probiotics which have been artificially cultured, for a short while the levels of these probiotics in the gut do increase. However, as soon as we stop eating them, levels taper off and disappear. For bacteria to be accepted into the normal gut and remain, they have to be programmed first through somebody else's gut (in this case mother's).

So, when it comes to repleting gut flora, there are two ways that we can go about this - either we can take probiotics very regularly (and the cheapest way to do this is to grow your own probiotics, see below) or to take bacteroides directly. Indeed, this latter technique is well established in the treatment of Clostridium Difficile (a normally fatal gastroenteritis in humans) and interestingly in Idiopathic Diarrhoea in horses. In the latter case horses are inoculated with the bacteria from the gut of another horse. These ideas have been developed further by Dr Thomas Borody with his ideas on Faecal bacteriotherapy which can provide a permanent cure in cases of ulcerative colitis, severe constipation, clostridium difficile infections and pseudomembranous colitis. The reason this technique works so well is because the most abundant bacteria in the large bowel, bacteroides, cannot survive outside the human gut and cannot be given by any other route.

The gut flora is extremely stable and difficult to change. Therefore if one is going to take probiotics, they have to be taken long term. Many preparations on the market are ineffective. Those found to be most effective are those milk ferments and live yoghurts where the product is freshly made. It is not really surprising. Keeping bacteria alive is difficult and it is not surprising that they do not survive dehydration and storage at room temperature. So your best chance of eating live viable bacteria is to buy live yoghurts or drinks. These can be easily grown at home, just as one would make home made yoghurt. If you cannot grow easily from a culture, then it suggests that the culture is not active, so this is a good test of what is and is not viable. I have tried to culture on milk and soya from dried extracts with very poor success rates suggesting that the dried extracts are not terribly viable.

The red emphasis is mine, of course. That quote is from this site:

http://drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Probiotics_- ... oenteritis

Theoretically, the best source for a bacteroide "transplant" would be from your husband, since you both ate the same food for years. Of course, your altered diet will also alter the population balance, but it will eventually reach homeostasis. Please keep us updated on how well it works, if you try this approach. It is a valid method, but no one here has tried it, to date.

Tex

[Zizzle]

Well that's depressing!!

I wonder if my poor kids were innoculated during their births with my evil gut bacteria?

I also wonder how we would select a good gut bacteria donor for transplantation? It wouldn't be my husband. He's got allergies and I'm convinced his entire family has latent celiac disease! Sounds like dangerous science, but I hope someone perfects it soon!

[tex]

I wonder if my poor kids were innoculated during their births with my evil gut bacteria?

They probably only got the "good" bacteria.

I also wonder how we would select a good gut bacteria donor for transplantation? It wouldn't be my husband. He's got allergies and I'm convinced his entire family has latent celiac disease! Sounds like dangerous science, but I hope someone perfects it soon!

Well, gut bacteria probably wouldn't carry your husband's allergy genes, (did you know that our gut bacteria can alter our genes?). If he's a "latent" celiac, though, they would almost certainly be adapted to that. Maybe one of your kids would make a suitable donor.

Tex

[Polly]

Interesting discussion!

I am fascinated by this gut bacteria transplant idea, too. Like you, Z, I believe that the underlying problem for me is the imbalance.

A question, Tex: Is it believed that all that is needed is a way to get the fragile bacteroides into the gut, or is there some other human "stamp" that must occur to them and/or the other gut bacteria? If it's the former case, then we need to find a way to grow and manitain a bacteroides culture at home, so we can just ingest some every day. Do we know how long the positive effects last after a transplant?

Z, the Cipro always works well for me......however, as soon as you stop it, the effect is gone. Plus the risk of ruptured tendon is scary to me.

We had a discussion some time ago about the possibility of MAP infection underlying MC. I still think that's a possibility. If you want to take something natural, try cinnamon, which kills MAP. (Tex, can you find that old thread? - thanks).

Love,

Polly

[tex]

Polly,

I know very, very little about this topic. I was totally unaware of it until you brought it to our attention, a few years ago.

The British doctor who wrote the article at the link in my post above, (which is where you originally read about this, I believe), suggests growing our own probiotics, in order to get healthier, more robust bacteria. Apparently, she prefers Kefir. I find the these remarks from that article to be interesting:

Another theme of the meeting was that different bacteria do different jobs. There is still a great deal of work to do in this field, but the following points came up:

1. In acute gastroenteritis one should always use probiotics as a routine.
2. When antibiotics are prescribed then probiotics again should be given as a routine.
3. Irritable bowel syndrome seems to respond best to Bifido bacteria and also saccharomyces boulardii.
4. The effect of probiotics may be enhanced by giving pre-biotics such as fructo-oligosaccharides 5 grams. In eczema the best bacteria are lactobacillus rhamnosus and lactobacillus reuteri and lactobacillus GG.
5. VSL3 (a patented probiotic preparation of live freeze-dried lactic acid bacteria) is a good combination probiotic for all round use. In inflammatory bowel disease the best bacteria are bifidus longum, combined with 6 grams of probiotics

The red emphasis is mine, of course.

We revisited the MAP issue, a few days ago, (probably while you were away):

http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewt ... hlight=map

and you may have missed the later posts in this thread:

http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewt ... hlight=map

Love,
Tex

[Gloria]

I think this is on-topic:

I posted a few months ago that my poop didn't smell and DH reasoned that it meant that I was low in bacteria. I've noticed in the past several weeks (about the same time as I've had improved poop) that my BMs are back to having an odor. I'm assuming that the bacteria has increased and have caused my BMs to be normal.

Gloria

[tex]

Gloria,

You're right on target with your assessment of bacteria and odor. Following my surgery in February, (which involved plenty of antibiotics during my hospital stay), for a month or so, the output from my ileostomy was pretty much odorless, (it smelled like food, not like you-know-what). I recall that I even posted about that observation). I didn't take any probiotics, but since I don't live in a sterile world, that situation slowly changed, and after 4 or 5 months, it regained it's characteristic odor. I suppose my BMs are "normal", (for an ileostomy), but of course, they will never actually be normal, (as defined by the term "Norman").

Tex

[angy]

Extremely interesting topic. This is an issue I'm always arguing about with myself. I used to take those probiotic drinks when i couldn't eat solids.I'd live off them for several days, a lot of little bottles a day..They did help to calm down the flares...but I then tried the capsules, you keep in the fridge...they were ok really....but I then moved onto organic

probiotic yoghurt which was better...it was calming on my gut..I have found that normal yoghurt give me twinge in my gut...maybe I should test for lactose intolerance.

Sent from my iPod

[tex]

Angy,

Yohurt, if properly made, (with active culture bacteria), contains almost no lactose. It does contain a heavy dose of casein, though.

Tex

[angy]

Interesting...casein is also something I have not been tested for ..IT must be in a lot of yoghurts too..

[tex]

Angy,

Oops, that was a typo. I meant yogurt, (not yohurt). "Yogurt" is the way we spell "yoghurt" in the U. S.

Yep, most of us who are gluten-sensitive, are also casein-sensitive, unfortunately. Casein usually causes "battery acid" D, for someone who is sensitive to it.

Tex

[Gabes-Apg]

Interestingly the gut bacteria and the need for taking probiotics comes up all the time in my acupuncture treatments. As i have not been able to tolerate taking any pro-biotics we are using some sprays that aid digestion and they are making a small contribution to stabilising the gut bacteria.

my acupucturist believes that once we settle down the leaky gut issues then the gut bacteria will improve... it will be slow process...