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Hi friends,
This webinar has been posted by someone earlier, but I thought I'd post it again as it's worth listening to. I'm pretty sure we have discussed the idea that there is gluten in all grains and that there are many different kinds of gluten, with gliadin, which is found in wheat, etc. being only one of them.
This is the first time I listened to the webinar, and it was a bit of an eye opener for me, as I truly believe I react to all grains, and it may be part of the reason why I'm having a difficult time reaching remission. As of yesterday, I eliminated rice (I don't eat any other grains) from my diet, and sure hope it will make a difference.
Love,
Kari
http://orthomolecularproducts.com/Media ... 3740afe25e
Gluten in all Grains - Dr. Peter Osborne Webinar
Moderators: Rosie, Stanz, Jean, CAMary, moremuscle, JFR, Dee, xet, Peggy, Matthew, Gabes-Apg, grannyh, Gloria, Mars, starfire, Polly, Joefnh
Gluten in all Grains - Dr. Peter Osborne Webinar
"My mouth waters whenever I pass a bakery shop and sniff the aroma of fresh bread, but I am also grateful simply to be alive and sniffing." Dr. Bernstein
Kari- So what is left for you to eat? I've been wondering if I should eliminate rice just to see what happens but I'm not sure how long I'd have to wait to see if it makes a difference. Rice is one of the few things that make me feel like I've actually eaten and I'm reluctant to give it up even on the short term.
Deb - potatoes have become my "filler", but I just found out that my blood sugar is a bit high, so I have to be careful with them. Nut butters are another filler - whenever I feel like I have to have something, I reach for peanut butter, which thankfully I'm fine with. Olives are another satisfying snack. I totally understand your reluctance to give up rice - it was definitely huge in my diet, as I ate Udi's bread and bagels, rice cereal, rice crackers, Pamelas pancakes, rice milk, as well as plain rice. Today I had a huge craving for something "rice", but thankfully was able to resist. I'm thinking of attempting biscuits made with almond or coconut flour (or a mix of both). Anyhow, I haven't decided yet for how long I'll do this test - taking it day by day.
Lesley - Peter Osborne is saying to stay away from ALL grains, which includes quinoa. He makes a compelling case if you listen to the whole webcast. Some people here have said they feel better when they don't eat grains, so I thought I'd give it a shot. However, can't say it's easy.
Tex - if you read this, I'm curious about your thoughts on this issue, and secretly hoping that you'll be able to explain it away so I can go back to my rice with a clear conscience :). Thanks in advance for your input.
Love,
Kari
Lesley - Peter Osborne is saying to stay away from ALL grains, which includes quinoa. He makes a compelling case if you listen to the whole webcast. Some people here have said they feel better when they don't eat grains, so I thought I'd give it a shot. However, can't say it's easy.
Tex - if you read this, I'm curious about your thoughts on this issue, and secretly hoping that you'll be able to explain it away so I can go back to my rice with a clear conscience :). Thanks in advance for your input.
Love,
Kari
"My mouth waters whenever I pass a bakery shop and sniff the aroma of fresh bread, but I am also grateful simply to be alive and sniffing." Dr. Bernstein
Hi Kari,
I downloaded the video after you posted the link, but unfortunately I haven't had a chance to view it yet. I'll try to do that over the weekend.
Actually, quinoa is not a grain. All grains are grasses, and quinoa is definitely not a grass. It's more closely related to broadleaf plants such as beets and spinach. In fact, it's in the same family as Amaranth. One of the problems with quinoa, though, (besides the risk of cross-contamination, from some suppliers), is the rather high saponin content, which has to be removed by processing, because it causes a bitter taste. Birds won't even bother the crop, because of that lectin.
As far as the issue of eating grains in general, is concerned, some of the research that I found, while writing the book, strongly suggests that cancer and almost surely most other modern diseases, did not exist, before the advent of grains in the human diet. (This applies to the cereal grains, only, which are true grasses). As far as I can determine, no one has ever been able to dispute that evidence with any credible scientific data to the contrary. IOW, cancer did not exist among hunter-gatherer tribes, as long as they ate traditionally, but when they changed to a more modern diet, they also began to develop cancer. Of course, that's not saying that any high risk exists, anytime we eat grains - it just implies that in the long run, they are not particularly healthy for us, as evolution has demonstrated.
Tex
I downloaded the video after you posted the link, but unfortunately I haven't had a chance to view it yet. I'll try to do that over the weekend.
Actually, quinoa is not a grain. All grains are grasses, and quinoa is definitely not a grass. It's more closely related to broadleaf plants such as beets and spinach. In fact, it's in the same family as Amaranth. One of the problems with quinoa, though, (besides the risk of cross-contamination, from some suppliers), is the rather high saponin content, which has to be removed by processing, because it causes a bitter taste. Birds won't even bother the crop, because of that lectin.
As far as the issue of eating grains in general, is concerned, some of the research that I found, while writing the book, strongly suggests that cancer and almost surely most other modern diseases, did not exist, before the advent of grains in the human diet. (This applies to the cereal grains, only, which are true grasses). As far as I can determine, no one has ever been able to dispute that evidence with any credible scientific data to the contrary. IOW, cancer did not exist among hunter-gatherer tribes, as long as they ate traditionally, but when they changed to a more modern diet, they also began to develop cancer. Of course, that's not saying that any high risk exists, anytime we eat grains - it just implies that in the long run, they are not particularly healthy for us, as evolution has demonstrated.
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Hi Tex,
Thanks for responding so quickly.
That's interesting about quinoa - if it doesn't contain gluten and it is free from cross contamination, it should be a good option for many of us. I remember trying it when I first started on the diet, but had quite a reaction, so it was probably contaminated. However, at that time I reacted to everything, including water :).
Hope you manage to find the time to watch Dr. Osborne's video - it's quite thought provoking. I'll be curious to hear your feedback.
Love,
Kari
Thanks for responding so quickly.
That's interesting about quinoa - if it doesn't contain gluten and it is free from cross contamination, it should be a good option for many of us. I remember trying it when I first started on the diet, but had quite a reaction, so it was probably contaminated. However, at that time I reacted to everything, including water :).
Hope you manage to find the time to watch Dr. Osborne's video - it's quite thought provoking. I'll be curious to hear your feedback.
Love,
Kari
"My mouth waters whenever I pass a bakery shop and sniff the aroma of fresh bread, but I am also grateful simply to be alive and sniffing." Dr. Bernstein
Kari,
I took the time to "absorb" the "webinar". Most of what he says seems to be on target, but I disagree with him on a couple of things. For one thing, I agree that gluten-sensitivity is not a disease, but neither is celiac disease. IMO, it's simply a symptom of gluten-sensitivity.
In the talk, he suggests that milk and meat may transfer gluten, (as if it were a fact), but of course, none of that has been proven, yet. Also, like a lot of "experts", he claims that the wheat that is grown today contains a lot more gluten than it did 30 years ago. Really? I grow wheat every year, and we still plant the same varieties that we grew 30 years ago. Why? Because the land grant colleges stopped trying to produce new wheat varieties somewhere in that time frame, so we have no choice but to continue to plant those same varieties. They stopped trying to develop new varieties because about 35 to 40 years ago, one of the "geniuses" at Texas A & M University decided to develop a wheat variety that would vernilize without the need for cold weather, so that it could be grown in South Texas. Before that time, wheat couldn't be grown from South Texas on down into Mexico and Central America, because the weather never got cold enough to allow it to vernilize, so it wouldn't produce any grain.
Once he let the cat out of the bag, they began to grow wheat all the way down to Central America, and guess what? That meant that it could be grown year around. Once it was no longer dormant during the winter, that meant that the varieties grown in South Texas and south of there, continued to develop all winter, and that old nemesis, wheat rust, never became dormant. That meant that in the spring, as our wheat began to come out of dormancy, the prevailing winds from the south were already loaded with rust, ready to infect any varieties north of there. The old existing varieties have developed a tolerance for the current strains of wheat rust, but all the new varieties of wheat that the land grant colleges were trying to develop would only survive for about one year, before the rust overtook them, and ruined them. After a few frustrating years, the wheat agronomists gave up, and as far as I'm aware, they still don't have any plans to develop new wheat varieties, because they don't know how to overcome the monster problem that they created. LOL.
Anyway, the point is, I don't see how the wheat could have more gluten than it had 30 years ago, when it's the same wheat that we planted 30 years ago.
He's certainly right about the celiac disease diagnostic chart that was developed by all the "experts" at that conference - it's worthless, for the reasons that he cited. He also mentioned Dr. Fasano's work with zonulin. I have a hunch that in the long run, "zonulin" will probably turn out to be a marker of leaky gut activation, rather than a trigger for it. That may be why the drug trial is not going so well.
One of the things that bothers me about Dr. Osborne is the fact that he sells a heck of a lot of "stuff" on his website, including genetic testing, which he recommends as the best way to go. I don't understand why that would be his standard, because 99.6% of the population has at least one gluten-sensitive gene. When you add the possibility of being sensitive to other types of gluten, (as he advocates), then we're all susceptible - that's a given. I would think that if tests are warranted, then stool testing would offer more valuable information, since it will show actual sensitivities, not the fact that we're vulnerable, (which we already know, because everyone is vulnerable). IOW, he has some valid ideas, but he's obviously in it for the money.
Regarding the risks of sensitivity to other grains - I tend to agree with him that the risk is there, at a lower activity level than wheat gluten. That's probably why I reacted to corn when I was recovering, but now, I've developed a tolerance for it, since I've been GF for so long. Most doctors would write off a small level of sensitivity as irrelevant, but the problem is, when you add up a lot of small reactions, the sum total can amount to a significant reaction. I think that this may be why so many of us have problems with processed GF foods. They contain mixtures of other grains, each of which has a low reactive potential, but all together, the reactive potential may be significant for some of us.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Love,
Tex
I took the time to "absorb" the "webinar". Most of what he says seems to be on target, but I disagree with him on a couple of things. For one thing, I agree that gluten-sensitivity is not a disease, but neither is celiac disease. IMO, it's simply a symptom of gluten-sensitivity.
In the talk, he suggests that milk and meat may transfer gluten, (as if it were a fact), but of course, none of that has been proven, yet. Also, like a lot of "experts", he claims that the wheat that is grown today contains a lot more gluten than it did 30 years ago. Really? I grow wheat every year, and we still plant the same varieties that we grew 30 years ago. Why? Because the land grant colleges stopped trying to produce new wheat varieties somewhere in that time frame, so we have no choice but to continue to plant those same varieties. They stopped trying to develop new varieties because about 35 to 40 years ago, one of the "geniuses" at Texas A & M University decided to develop a wheat variety that would vernilize without the need for cold weather, so that it could be grown in South Texas. Before that time, wheat couldn't be grown from South Texas on down into Mexico and Central America, because the weather never got cold enough to allow it to vernilize, so it wouldn't produce any grain.
Once he let the cat out of the bag, they began to grow wheat all the way down to Central America, and guess what? That meant that it could be grown year around. Once it was no longer dormant during the winter, that meant that the varieties grown in South Texas and south of there, continued to develop all winter, and that old nemesis, wheat rust, never became dormant. That meant that in the spring, as our wheat began to come out of dormancy, the prevailing winds from the south were already loaded with rust, ready to infect any varieties north of there. The old existing varieties have developed a tolerance for the current strains of wheat rust, but all the new varieties of wheat that the land grant colleges were trying to develop would only survive for about one year, before the rust overtook them, and ruined them. After a few frustrating years, the wheat agronomists gave up, and as far as I'm aware, they still don't have any plans to develop new wheat varieties, because they don't know how to overcome the monster problem that they created. LOL.
Anyway, the point is, I don't see how the wheat could have more gluten than it had 30 years ago, when it's the same wheat that we planted 30 years ago.
He's certainly right about the celiac disease diagnostic chart that was developed by all the "experts" at that conference - it's worthless, for the reasons that he cited. He also mentioned Dr. Fasano's work with zonulin. I have a hunch that in the long run, "zonulin" will probably turn out to be a marker of leaky gut activation, rather than a trigger for it. That may be why the drug trial is not going so well.
One of the things that bothers me about Dr. Osborne is the fact that he sells a heck of a lot of "stuff" on his website, including genetic testing, which he recommends as the best way to go. I don't understand why that would be his standard, because 99.6% of the population has at least one gluten-sensitive gene. When you add the possibility of being sensitive to other types of gluten, (as he advocates), then we're all susceptible - that's a given. I would think that if tests are warranted, then stool testing would offer more valuable information, since it will show actual sensitivities, not the fact that we're vulnerable, (which we already know, because everyone is vulnerable). IOW, he has some valid ideas, but he's obviously in it for the money.
Regarding the risks of sensitivity to other grains - I tend to agree with him that the risk is there, at a lower activity level than wheat gluten. That's probably why I reacted to corn when I was recovering, but now, I've developed a tolerance for it, since I've been GF for so long. Most doctors would write off a small level of sensitivity as irrelevant, but the problem is, when you add up a lot of small reactions, the sum total can amount to a significant reaction. I think that this may be why so many of us have problems with processed GF foods. They contain mixtures of other grains, each of which has a low reactive potential, but all together, the reactive potential may be significant for some of us.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Love,
Tex
It is suspected that some of the hardest material known to science can be found in the skulls of GI specialists who insist that diet has nothing to do with the treatment of microscopic colitis.
Hi Tex,
I always love the agricultural discussions btw! I have not listened to the webinar.....many times I don't have time to go to links due to busy work schedule etc. so thanks for the recap.
Deb, Regarding what to eat----During months of getting to remission, i.e. when I was still in flare I still ate some grains even though I knew it was better to eat more meat and overcooked veggies. The problem with going total paleo, i.e. no grains during flare is I think it is tough to get enough calories and even "fill up". During flare we can't eat fruit, we can't eat salads and we can't eat nuts. During my months of flare I could tell that grains were problematic for me in that rice, corn chips and quinoa caused extreme dizziness. I ended up moving rice in moderation to the evenings. By moving rice in moderation to the evenings I was able to function during the day i.e. reduced dizziness. I never tried potato or sweet potato during flare and probably I should have. Rice is such a huge cooking/convenience food when we are going thru the exhaustion of this disease.
Around Jan 15th I could tell rice, quinoa and corn chips was still very problematic for me and I eliminated grains then. The difference was that by that time (out of flare) I was able to eat apples with peel, short cut carrots (raw), and salads, and some other fruits. Eliminating grains when I was able to eat apples, raw carrots, fruits and salads was not too big of a deal but I don't think I could have totally eliminated grains during flare.
By April 1 I was at a family weekend retested rice and udi's bread and I've been eating potatoes. I'm ok now with rice, udi's bread and potatoes (i.e. no dizziness) but I still havn't retested corn chips or quinoa. I'll probably wait awhile on that. Nuts still continue to be problematic.....I'll probably wait 6 months b/f testing them.
To recap on eliminating grains during flare.....possibly I would have healed faster but it would have been too limiting of a diet for me. Once you are well on the way to remission, i.e. can eat some raw fruits, raw veggies, salads it is not too big of a deal to eliminate grains or reduce them.
Where I'm at now....heading into remission.....I'm probably 80% paleo....i.e. eating grains in moderation.
Best wishes, Brandy
I always love the agricultural discussions btw! I have not listened to the webinar.....many times I don't have time to go to links due to busy work schedule etc. so thanks for the recap.
Deb, Regarding what to eat----During months of getting to remission, i.e. when I was still in flare I still ate some grains even though I knew it was better to eat more meat and overcooked veggies. The problem with going total paleo, i.e. no grains during flare is I think it is tough to get enough calories and even "fill up". During flare we can't eat fruit, we can't eat salads and we can't eat nuts. During my months of flare I could tell that grains were problematic for me in that rice, corn chips and quinoa caused extreme dizziness. I ended up moving rice in moderation to the evenings. By moving rice in moderation to the evenings I was able to function during the day i.e. reduced dizziness. I never tried potato or sweet potato during flare and probably I should have. Rice is such a huge cooking/convenience food when we are going thru the exhaustion of this disease.
Around Jan 15th I could tell rice, quinoa and corn chips was still very problematic for me and I eliminated grains then. The difference was that by that time (out of flare) I was able to eat apples with peel, short cut carrots (raw), and salads, and some other fruits. Eliminating grains when I was able to eat apples, raw carrots, fruits and salads was not too big of a deal but I don't think I could have totally eliminated grains during flare.
By April 1 I was at a family weekend retested rice and udi's bread and I've been eating potatoes. I'm ok now with rice, udi's bread and potatoes (i.e. no dizziness) but I still havn't retested corn chips or quinoa. I'll probably wait awhile on that. Nuts still continue to be problematic.....I'll probably wait 6 months b/f testing them.
To recap on eliminating grains during flare.....possibly I would have healed faster but it would have been too limiting of a diet for me. Once you are well on the way to remission, i.e. can eat some raw fruits, raw veggies, salads it is not too big of a deal to eliminate grains or reduce them.
Where I'm at now....heading into remission.....I'm probably 80% paleo....i.e. eating grains in moderation.
Best wishes, Brandy
Tex,
Thank you for your thoughts on the webcast. I agree that his focus on the gene testing is not very helpful, and I also don't like that he is "selling" things - that's always a red flag. I like your thoughts about "low reactive grains" that can have a cumulative effect. The key is probably "moderation" rather than "abstinence". I showed reactivity to corn on MRT, and have stayed away completely, but as time goes by, I bet I can have a little without a major reaction. As far as rice, I've never been able to "prove" to myself that I have a reaction to it, so I will get it back into my diet, albeit in moderation.
Deb - I agree that doing without rice and rice products makes getting enough calories very difficult. After 4 days of no rice, I already dropped more than one precious pound:). Staying strictly paleo seems to be an impossible task for me, and I'm not convinced that it's so healthy either. Anyhow, thought I'd let you know that my little experiment did not seem to have any effect, so yesterday I reintroduced a little rice with dinner with absolutely no problem. I keep thinking about all the people in the world who practically live on rice, and are quite healthy. I believe I've read that the people in Japan have the highest longevity rate, and I'm sure they include rice in their diet.
Brandy - your point about going easy on grains during a flare makes sense to me, along with eating grains in moderation in general. Listening to our body's "feedback" is key.
Tex - I also like your thought of "developing tolerance" for certain foods as we heal.
Love,
Kari
Thank you for your thoughts on the webcast. I agree that his focus on the gene testing is not very helpful, and I also don't like that he is "selling" things - that's always a red flag. I like your thoughts about "low reactive grains" that can have a cumulative effect. The key is probably "moderation" rather than "abstinence". I showed reactivity to corn on MRT, and have stayed away completely, but as time goes by, I bet I can have a little without a major reaction. As far as rice, I've never been able to "prove" to myself that I have a reaction to it, so I will get it back into my diet, albeit in moderation.
Deb - I agree that doing without rice and rice products makes getting enough calories very difficult. After 4 days of no rice, I already dropped more than one precious pound:). Staying strictly paleo seems to be an impossible task for me, and I'm not convinced that it's so healthy either. Anyhow, thought I'd let you know that my little experiment did not seem to have any effect, so yesterday I reintroduced a little rice with dinner with absolutely no problem. I keep thinking about all the people in the world who practically live on rice, and are quite healthy. I believe I've read that the people in Japan have the highest longevity rate, and I'm sure they include rice in their diet.
Brandy - your point about going easy on grains during a flare makes sense to me, along with eating grains in moderation in general. Listening to our body's "feedback" is key.
Tex - I also like your thought of "developing tolerance" for certain foods as we heal.
Love,
Kari
"My mouth waters whenever I pass a bakery shop and sniff the aroma of fresh bread, but I am also grateful simply to be alive and sniffing." Dr. Bernstein